From owner-ibis Sun Apr 1 01:49:27 2001 Received: from natsemi-bh.nsc.com (natsemi-bh.nsc.com [204.163.202.66]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f319nP511568 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id BAA22417 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nsc.nsc.com(139.187.81.1) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com via smap (4.1) id xma022350; Sun, 1 Apr 01 01:48:26 -0800 Received: from taux01.nsc.com (taux01.nsc.com [139.187.251.4]) by nsc.nsc.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20718 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from taux01.nsc.com (tasu45 [139.187.253.93]) by taux01.nsc.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29271; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 11:46:23 +0200 (IST) Sender: dimita@taux01.nsc.com Message-ID: <3AC6F8EE.641D3909@taux01.nsc.com> Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:46:22 +0200 From: Dimitry Aizenstat Organization: National Semiconductor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: ru, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: hspice failed on io_buffer IBIS model Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all! I have a problem with IBIS model that I created via s2ibis: when I run hspice with this model using "b_io" instance statement (actually the customer needs run it), the error "incorrect Pull_Down and/or Pull_Up data" appears, but tables itself looks ok in *.ibs file.I use 1999.2 version of the Star-Hspice. Maybe someone has experience with using IBIS buffer model in hspice & debugging of same errors? Thank you for your help. Regards, Dmitry -- +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Dmitry Aizenshtat Circuit Design Engineer, NSTA | | Tel : 972-9-9702-020 Fax : 972-9-9702-001 | | mailto:dimita@taux01.nsc.com | +---------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-ibis Mon Apr 2 08:27:02 2001 Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f32FQw517893 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.45.34]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4A0E; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:31:44 -0700 Sender: "Kim Helliwell" Message-ID: <3AC89A25.F7D3731@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:26:29 -0700 From: Kim Helliwell Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dimitry Aizenstat CC: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: Re: hspice failed on io_buffer IBIS model References: <3AC6F8EE.641D3909@taux01.nsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dimitry Aizenstat wrote: > > Hi, all! > I have a problem with IBIS model that I created via s2ibis: when I run > hspice with this model using "b_io" instance statement (actually the > customer needs run it), the error "incorrect Pull_Down and/or Pull_Up > data" appears, but tables itself looks ok in *.ibs file.I use 1999.2 > version of the Star-Hspice. > Maybe someone has experience with using IBIS buffer model in hspice & > debugging of same errors? > Thank you for your help. > Regards, > Dmitry > -- > +---------------------------------------------------------+ > | Dmitry Aizenshtat Circuit Design Engineer, NSTA | > | Tel : 972-9-9702-020 Fax : 972-9-9702-001 | > | mailto:dimita@taux01.nsc.com | > +---------------------------------------------------------+ If you have your maintenance in force, your best bet would be to call the HSPICE hotline: 800.346.5953. If you don't have maintenance in force, why not? -- Kim Helliwell Senior CAE Engineer Acuson Corporation Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 From owner-ibis Mon Apr 2 11:04:04 2001 Received: from ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net (ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net [216.34.191.39]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f32I41520383 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (int-ch1gw-2 [3.159.232.66]) by ext-ch1gw-4.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id OAA21043 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uswaumsxb4medge.med.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id OAA08935 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by USWAUMSXB4MEDGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2C6C3ZK6>; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:02:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" To: "IBIS User Group (E-mail)" Subject: S2IBIS Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:02:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi IBIS gurus, Is there anyone in the users group who is using the NT version of the s2ibis tool (Spice to IBIS translator)? Please reply to me if you are. Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Mathew Signal Integrity Expert, Global Electrical Technology Center, GE Medical Systems, Phone:(262)544-3776 Fax:(262)548-2315 From owner-ibis Tue Apr 3 14:12:37 2001 Received: from mail02-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-2.pilot.net [198.232.147.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f33LCZ529158 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsgate.xilinx.com (mailgate.xilinx.com [149.199.60.204]) by mail02-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id OAA06978 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renfield.xbc.xilinx.com (unknown-178-102.xilinx.com [149.199.178.102]) by newsgate.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29362 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fedex.xilinx.com (fedex [149.199.178.143]) by renfield.xbc.xilinx.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20511 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:06:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xilinx.com ([149.199.173.47]) by fedex.xilinx.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GB8IMD00.K5I for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:06:13 -0600 Message-ID: <3ACA3B29.BBFF54CB@xilinx.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:05:45 -0600 From: "Linda Echo-Hawk" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: golden parser Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you tell me if you plan to enhance the golden parser to accept the longer filenames (20 character basename plus .ibs) supported in Version 3.2? I just downloaded the latest ibischk3 (V3.2.7) but it complains about name lengths longer than 12. Thanks -- Linda Echo-Hawk From owner-ibis Tue Apr 3 15:32:10 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f33MW7529376 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id PAA14006; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com (bob.wv.mentorg.com [147.34.83.63]) by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id H6NA08C0; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:31:12 -0700 Sender: bobr@relay1.mentorg.com Message-ID: <3ACA4F2F.20886E8A@mentor.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:31:11 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linda Echo-Hawk CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: golden parser References: <3ACA3B29.BBFF54CB@xilinx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda: If the file is given [IBIS Ver] 3.2 no errors should be issued. However, if the file is given [IBIS Ver] 2.1 or below, you will get the name length error. IBIS Version 2.1 files still have the 12 character total name length restriction. Bob Ross Mentor Graphics Linda Echo-Hawk wrote: > > Can you tell me if you plan to enhance the golden parser to accept the > longer filenames (20 character basename plus .ibs) supported in Version > 3.2? I just downloaded the latest ibischk3 (V3.2.7) but it complains > about name lengths longer than 12. > > Thanks -- > Linda Echo-Hawk From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 06:34:47 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34DYi503828 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7271 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 13:32:36 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 13:32:36 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@vhdl.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:33:29 -0400 Received: from newbridge.com ([138.120.118.113]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA912 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:33:28 -0400 Message-Id: <3ACB22A9.5ABA9A54@newbridge.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:33:29 -0500 From: "DORIN OPREA" Organization: Newbridge Networks Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "IBIS User Group (E-mail)" Subject: IBIS for analog X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The circuit to simulate is: a differential buffer driving a transformer. The model we received for the IC device is an IBIS model. The question is: Can IBIS model be used within HSPICE for analog simulation ? Thanks, Dorin --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="doprea.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dorin Oprea Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="doprea.vcf" begin:vcard n:Oprea;Dorin tel;fax:613 - 599 3642 tel;work:613 - 784 2388 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.ca.newbridge.com/kan/ org:Alactel CID;PI adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:dorin.oprea@alcatel.com title:SI/EMC Engineer fn:Dorin end:vcard --------------6D09AAEA2BDE2352A5957C03-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:02:18 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34E2F503971 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9070 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 14:00:07 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:00:07 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:59:20 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA211B for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:59:19 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:58:56 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------A8693C4B0126D46FA00D5876-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:22:30 2001 Received: from paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net (paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net [131.119.246.6]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34EMR504073 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com (fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com [192.233.132.79]) by paloalto-smrly2.gtei.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 377DD495D for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: FROM fairchildsemi.com BY hqnttest01.fairchildsemi.com ; Wed Apr 04 10:21:23 2001 -0400 Received: from notes.fairchildsemi.com by fairchildsemi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA16656; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:18:28 -0400 Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model To: "ibis-users@eda.org" From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:18:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SPNOTES01/Corporate/FSC(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/04/2001 10:18:47 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jason, I'm not sure what translator you are using but the HSPICE translator will by default use ramp data for determining switching characteristics in DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the translator use the rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of the Avanti HSPICE User's Manual. Adam Tambone Fairchild Semiconductor Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:33:20 2001 Received: from pop.nwlink.com (pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34EXH504119 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com (ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.246.210]) by pop.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA16227; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com by ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com via smtpd (for pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:32:51 UT Received: from [192.168.149.1] (hlgw.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.1]) by mail (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with SMTP id HAA16921; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:32:51 -0700 Message-ID: <019401c0bd14$2dfffa80$9594a8c0@hyperlynx.com> From: "Matthew Flora" To: "Jason Leung" , Received: from no.name.available by [192.168.149.1] via smtpd (for mail.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.2]) with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 14:32:51 UT References: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:33:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Dear Jason Leung, What IBIS translator are you referring to? The IBIS Golden Parser (IBISCHK3 ver 3.2.7) will flag the model as invalid. Best regards, Matthew Flora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Leung" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > Hi everyone: > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > for the driver: > | variable typ min max > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n > R_load = 50.0000 > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle > this situation?? > thanks alot > Best Regards > Jason Leung > From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 07:41:07 2001 Received: from ausxc10.us.dell.com (ausxc10.us.dell.com [143.166.98.229]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34Ef4504154 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc10.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2F2CKPP9>; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:34:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:36:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your simulator may go nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your supplier and insist that the ramp data match the VT data. Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Jason, > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > HSPICE translator > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > characteristics in > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > translator use the > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > the Avanti > HSPICE User's Manual. > > Adam Tambone > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > Hi everyone: > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > for the driver: > | variable typ min max > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > 2.1792/0.4102n > R_load = 50.0000 > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > going to handle > this situation?? > thanks alot > Best Regards > Jason Leung > > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD14.A378C350-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:13:44 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34FDg504351 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13716 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:10:39 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA61BC; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:10:37 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB3958.FFBE2FED@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:10:16 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Flora CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: <3ACB28A0.C611CE4E@cid.alcatel.com> <019401c0bd14$2dfffa80$9594a8c0@hyperlynx.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Matthew Flora: Thanks for your comment . I am using IBIS2XTK V5.01 , but the golden Parser doesn't show any error message at the end. Thanks alot Jason Leung Matthew Flora wrote: > Dear Jason Leung, > > What IBIS translator are you referring to? The IBIS Golden Parser (IBISCHK3 > ver 3.2.7) will flag the model as invalid. > > Best regards, > Matthew Flora > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason Leung" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:58 AM > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Hi everyone: > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > > for the driver: > > | variable typ min max > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle > > this situation?? > > thanks alot > > Best Regards > > Jason Leung > > --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------A93CACDF7FD66D5111F80049-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:34:34 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34FYV504488 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id IAA10964; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B44146901BAD15D@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dunbar, Tony" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:33:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this dV/dt_r parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters should be ignored by the simulator, anyway. Neverthless, as has been suggested already, I would also strongly encourage you to throw the model back at the vendor that supplied it. This sort of clumsy or outright bad modeling continues in part, I believe, because we, as consumers, tweak this and change that without letting our suppliers know they are producing garbage. Sorry to rant on, but this is a pet subject of mine because it wastes too much of my time and WAY TOO MUCH of my customers' time. If it was a part for my car brakes that didn't quite fit, what would I do? Closer to the point, if it was a VHDL model that wasn't quite right and the ASIC didn't work, what would you and your management do. Signed, Mr. Angry (Tony Angry, that is!) -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model Hi everyone: I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time for the driver: | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n 2.1792/0.4102n R_load = 50.0000 My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator going to handle this situation?? thanks alot Best Regards Jason Leung From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 08:43:13 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f34FhA504567 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15288 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 15:41:02 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 15:41:02 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:36:34 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA294; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:36:33 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3ACB3F6B.5D7400EF@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:36:11 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aubrey_Sparkman@dell.com CC: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aubrey Sparkman: So even though the translator doesn't complain about the zero rise time in the driver model, the translator will go "nuts" ehh? So the waveform come after the simulation will have no meaning ehh? what do you mean by" ramp data match the VT data"? thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your simulator may go > nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your supplier and > insist that the ramp data match the VT data. > > Aubrey Sparkman > Signal Integrity > Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com > (512) 723-3592 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > > > > Jason, > > > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > > HSPICE translator > > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > > characteristics in > > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > > translator use the > > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > > the Avanti > > HSPICE User's Manual. > > > > Adam Tambone > > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > > > > > Hi everyone: > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a zero rise time > > for the driver: > > | variable typ min max > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > > 2.1792/0.4102n > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > > going to handle > > this situation?? > > thanks alot > > Best Regards > > Jason Leung > > > > --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------079603B827B8556BAD7B9C7C-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:02:42 2001 Received: from zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (zcamail03.zca.compaq.com [161.114.32.103]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34G2d504664 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id F385EEA6; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net (exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net [16.103.129.53]) by zcamail03.zca.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F53F10 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:02:08 -0400 Message-ID: <212CC57E84B8D111AD780000F84AA0490C713DFB@mroexc2.tay.cpqcorp.net> From: "Ingraham, Andrew" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:02:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain > One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this > dV/dt_r > parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters > should > be ignored by the simulator, anyway. Not all simulators use the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] data if it's there. That is one reason why IBIS requires the [Ramp] data even if the waveforms are also provided. Even if the simulator does use the waveform tables, is it prohibited from looking at the [Ramp] data? Conceivably, its algorithms might use the [Ramp] data, either to enhance its accuracy somehow, or as an internal "sanity check" that the tables and [Ramp] data are consistent. Presumably, the 0/0 values mean the person who created the IBIS data sheet, didn't finish. There may be valid reasons for doing that; perhaps this is a preliminary model and its customers know and understand that. I won't argue that it needs to be fixed, but I don't know the circumstances here. In the interim, personally I would want to avoid 0/0, since it might be mathematically problematic, with unpredictable results. If I were you, I'd substitute something like 1/1, which I think should be less likely to cause an unexpected outcome. Either the simulator doesn't use it, or you should see very slow rising edges in your simulations which should stand out and tell you that this model is incomplete for those edges. That is better than the simulator blowing its brain to bits and scribbling all over your disk or something. Andy From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:15:39 2001 Received: from camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net (camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net [128.11.173.4]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34GFa504767 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com (fairchild-cp.fairchildsemi.com [192.233.132.79]) by camcolo2-smrly1.gtei.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EE77653C for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:15:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: FROM fairchildsemi.com BY hqnttest01.fairchildsemi.com ; Wed Apr 04 12:14:44 2001 -0400 Received: from notes.fairchildsemi.com by fairchildsemi.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA01053; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:11:48 -0400 Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:11:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SPNOTES01/Corporate/FSC(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/04/2001 12:12:07 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jason, If V/t data is included in the IBIS datasheet a solution might be to determine the slope of the line defined by the 20% and 80% points of the V/t waveform and use this value for the ramp parameter of interest. As previously mentioned you should not have to do this 'fix'. Adam Tambone From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 09:21:01 2001 Received: from mailgate2.Cadence.COM (mailgate2.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34GKw504805 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gda.Cadence.COM (gda.Cadence.COM [158.140.106.10]) by mailgate2.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10490; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cadence.com (d158140105215 [158.140.105.215]) by gda.Cadence.COM (8.10.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id f34GKKV05005; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3ACB49C2.71592121@cadence.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 12:20:18 -0400 From: Ian Dodd Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ingraham, Andrew" CC: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model References: <212CC57E84B8D111AD780000F84AA0490C713DFB@mroexc2.tay.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Received: By mailgate2.Cadence.COM as JAA10490 at Wed Apr 4 09:20:22 2001 Andy, I think you have a pretty good handle on what is likely to happen. I can expand a little ... Some environments use the Ramp data to make some basic decisions about how to set up the simulations. e.g. which driver on a bi-directional net is likely to cause the greatest amount of crosstalk. The infinite edge rate in this case could cause unintended results even before it gets to the simulator. Ian Dodd "Ingraham, Andrew" wrote: > > > One subtle point here is whether, or not, the [Model] that has this > > dV/dt_r > > parameter also has waveform tables. If it does, the [Ramp] parameters > > should > > be ignored by the simulator, anyway. > > Not all simulators use the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] data if > it's there. That is one reason why IBIS requires the [Ramp] data even if > the waveforms are also provided. > > Even if the simulator does use the waveform tables, is it prohibited from > looking at the [Ramp] data? Conceivably, its algorithms might use the > [Ramp] data, either to enhance its accuracy somehow, or as an internal > "sanity check" that the tables and [Ramp] data are consistent. > > Presumably, the 0/0 values mean the person who created the IBIS data sheet, > didn't finish. There may be valid reasons for doing that; perhaps this is a > preliminary model and its customers know and understand that. I won't argue > that it needs to be fixed, but I don't know the circumstances here. > > In the interim, personally I would want to avoid 0/0, since it might be > mathematically problematic, with unpredictable results. If I were you, I'd > substitute something like 1/1, which I think should be less likely to cause > an unexpected outcome. Either the simulator doesn't use it, or you should > see very slow rising edges in your simulations which should stand out and > tell you that this model is incomplete for those edges. That is better than > the simulator blowing its brain to bits and scribbling all over your disk or > something. > > Andy From owner-ibis Wed Apr 4 11:47:58 2001 Received: from ausxc08.us.dell.com (ausxc08.us.dell.com [143.166.99.216]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f34Ilu505554 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc08.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2FJ26N5N>; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:45:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: jleung@cid.alcatel.com Cc: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: zero risetime in the IBIS model Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:44:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, Yes, I have seen a simulator go nuts and produce a very strange meaningless waveform. Problem went away when the [Ramp] data was corrected. ramp data matching the VT data means that they should agree, both come from time-based data, perhaps even the same load. From a purist point of view, I'm not an IBIS expert and I don't want to change the data my supplier gives me. But if your boss wants results NOW with your best GUESS, as another suggested, you can build your own Ramp data from the V/T data. Use the Rising Waveform for the dV/dt_r (R_fixture to ground if there are two). Use the Falling Waveform for the dV/dt_f (R_fixture to V_fixtuer if there are two). dV=0.6*(Vmax-Vmin) dt_x is the difference in time between the 20% and 80% voltage points. Good Luck! Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:36 AM > To: Aubrey_Sparkman@exchange.dell.com > Cc: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > Hi Aubrey Sparkman: > So even though the translator doesn't complain about the zero > rise time in the > driver model, the translator will go "nuts" ehh? So the > waveform come after > the simulation will have no meaning ehh? > what do you mean by" ramp data match the VT data"? > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > Even if your simulator's translator doesn't complain, your > simulator may go > > nuts and give VERY "interesting" results. Go back to your > supplier and > > insist that the ramp data match the VT data. > > > > Aubrey Sparkman > > Signal Integrity > > Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com > > (512) 723-3592 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com > > > [mailto:Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:18 AM > > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > > Subject: Re: zero risetime in the IBIS model > > > > > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I'm not sure what translator you are using but the > > > HSPICE translator > > > will by default use ramp data for determining switching > > > characteristics in > > > DC and transient analysis. You can specify that the > > > translator use the > > > rising and falling waveform data instead. See Chapter 18 of > > > the Avanti > > > HSPICE User's Manual. > > > > > > Adam Tambone > > > Fairchild Semiconductor > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone: > > > I am trying to verify a IBIS model which consists of a > zero rise time > > > for the driver: > > > | variable typ min max > > > dV/dt_r 0/0 0/0 0/0 > > > dV/dt_f 2.0448/0.4029n 1.8546/0.4176n > > > 2.1792/0.4102n > > > R_load = 50.0000 > > > > > > My question is :does anyone know how the IBIS translator > > > going to handle > > > this situation?? > > > thanks alot > > > Best Regards > > > Jason Leung > > > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0BD37.5868FBA0-- From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 02:01:55 2001 Received: from thesys.de (s01.thesys.de [193.141.53.1]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3591b510887 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03534 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01705 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:30:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01178 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:20:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thesys.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01083 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:18:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from s171.thesys.de (s171 [10.49.10.171]) by thesys.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22013 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:46:36 +0200 (MET DST) Posted-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:46:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfab.com ([10.49.10.4]) by s171.thesys.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with ESMTP id AAA4710 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:42:27 +0200 Sender: cornelia@thesys.de Message-ID: <3ACC1EE4.41895156@xfab.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:29:40 +0200 From: Cornelia Foss Organization: XFAB Semiconductor Foundries GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=iso-8859-15; name="Cornelia.Foss.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Cornelia Foss Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cornelia.Foss.vcf" begin:vcard n:Foss;Cornelia x-mozilla-html:TRUE org:XFAB Semiconductor Foundries GmbH adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:Cornelia.Foss@xfab.com title:Design Technology x-mozilla-cpt:;-27568 fn:Cornelia.Foss@xfab.com end:vcard --------------51DDB5F65BCEFB0A7A1C314F-- From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 04:08:47 2001 Received: from kelly.sercomtel.com.br (kelly.sercomtel.com.br [200.250.19.8]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35B8g511603 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 04:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from verde.onda.com.br (pophost.onda.com.br [200.250.19.90]) by kelly.sercomtel.com.br (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29215 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:08:08 -0300 (EST) Received: from superman (ascta004p013.onda.com.br [200.195.214.13]) by verde.onda.com.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA05211 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:08:13 -0300 (EST) Message-ID: <004201c0bdc0$79da6420$0dd6c3c8@superman> From: "Rafael Cancellier" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:06:02 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 unsubscribe From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 05:19:17 2001 Received: from mink.ecitele.com (mink.ecitele.com [147.234.1.100]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35CJ8511893; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olive.ecitele.com (ilsmtp04.ecitele.com [147.234.8.125]) by mink.ecitele.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22789; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:16:15 +0200 (IST) Subject: IBIS connector modeling To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis-info@eda.org Cc: Yossi.Makai@ecitele.com, Daniel.Adar@ecitele.com, Naftali.Refaeli@ecitele.com X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.2b (Intl) 16 December 1999 Message-ID: From: Larry.Odess@ecitele.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:18:39 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ILSMTP04/ECI Telecom(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 04/05/2001 02:18:37 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We at ECI are interested in getting information from users who have generated IBIS connector models. (The "Connector Info" button at the http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm site gave us gibberish). Please send me information, references, and/or contact information on this subject. From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 13:11:07 2001 Received: from starrunner.starcon.com (mailhub1.stargate.ca [207.230.244.3]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f35KB4513955 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Rick (h21-lmi.att-h.starcon.com [216.13.185.21]) by starrunner.starcon.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 546-34140U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA212 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:10:26 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c0be0c$8a8c2820$5d00a8c0@lmint.com> From: "Rick McBain" To: References: <004201c0bdc0$79da6420$0dd6c3c8@superman> Subject: unsubscribe Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:11:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From owner-ibis Thu Apr 5 17:49:26 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f360nM515071; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id RAA27511; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com (bob.wv.mentorg.com [147.34.83.63]) by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id H6NBACHF; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:48:32 -0700 Sender: bobr@relay1.mentorg.com Message-ID: <3ACD1260.3C79A015@mentor.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:48:32 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry.Odess@ecitele.com CC: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis-info@eda.org, Yossi.Makai@ecitele.com, Daniel.Adar@ecitele.com, Naftali.Refaeli@ecitele.com Subject: Re: IBIS connector modeling References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry: The IBIS Connector Specification is still being developed. There are no official IBIS models or users at this time. You would need to contact EDA Vendors directly regarding their connector modeling solutions. Best Regards, Bob Ross Mentor Graphics Larry.Odess@ecitele.com wrote: > > We at ECI are interested in getting information from users who have > generated IBIS connector models. > (The "Connector Info" button at the http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm > site gave us gibberish). > Please send me information, references, and/or contact information on this > subject. From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 06:19:27 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39DJO506875 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18665 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 13:16:06 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 13:16:06 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:14:13 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2AE2; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:14:11 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:14:00 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: Morning! I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output impedance in XNS. My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a driver? AND how did you achieve that? Thanks very much for your comment! Jason leung --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------5FF4C4A7C47C61A39089B25D-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 07:59:23 2001 Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (jffdns02.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39ExK507431 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs01-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.200]) by hebe.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id OAA25024 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:58:53 GMT Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.28]) by 192.168.70.200 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:58:52 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2KPD6L8M>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:58:50 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553AF@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:58:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jason, The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the buffer a higher frequencies. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ================================================================ -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi all: Morning! I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output impedance in XNS. My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a driver? AND how did you achieve that? Thanks very much for your comment! Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:16:48 2001 Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39GGj507713 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 89404 invoked by alias); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis-users@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 89385 invoked by uid 0); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasthorizons.com) (63.225.95.1) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:16:01 -0700 From: Scott McMorrow Organization: SiQual X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Leung CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jason, If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can be calculated. For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the output impedance is 28.57 ohms. regards, scott -- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com Jason Leung wrote: > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:43:07 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39Gh4507911 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3283 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:23 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAABA8; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:22 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1E627.F7650FCC@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:41:12 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott McMorrow CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 09:48:46 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Gmh507934 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id JAA10366; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2N9S0N1Q>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B4414690468D19C@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dagostino, Tom" To: "'Jason Leung'" , Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If you do both you will find there is usually a difference in pullup and pulldown impedance. Makes the design job more interesting. What trade-off are you going to make? Tom Dagostino IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager SDD Mentor Graphics Corp. 503-685-1613 tom_dagostino@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 11:20:51 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39IKm508303 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9932 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 18:18:31 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 18:18:31 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:17:11 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5EB0; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:17:10 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1FC9D.42781AD@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:17:01 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Muranyi, Arpad" CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553AF@FMSMSX34> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Muranyi, Arpad: Thanks for your advice! one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from my colleague to use XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the spawn -> VI viewer , we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt and low and many many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate approximation of the output impedance of the driver . The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of the driver in the IBIS model I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the XNS (QUAD) model ,so that I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS interpret the output impedance of that driver ). thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > buffer a higher frequencies. > > Arpad Muranyi > Intel Corporation > ================================================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------D1C93CBAB029B90B904CFCF3-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 12:16:09 2001 Received: from intermailhost.viewlogic.com (intermailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.6.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39JG6508603 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.viewlogic.com (mailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.3.35]) by intermailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17207 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com (taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com [139.181.194.20]) by mailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16722 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcchrisr (pc-chrisr.camarillo.innoveda.com [139.181.194.170]) by taurus.camarillo.innoveda.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21299 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Rokusek" To: Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:16:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3AD1FC9D.42781AD@cid.alcatel.com> Jason, The curves shown in the VI viewer are identical (in most cases) to the tables in the IBIS file. You can use the output XTK file directly just as you did with the IBIS file using the following mapping. IBIS XTK ------ ------- Pullup High Pulldown Low POWER_Clamp Shunt GND_Clamp Shunt_Neg However... It is somewhat dangerous to provide only a single static impedance value as others have pointed out due to the large variance over the typical operating range, current state, process variation, and dynamic switching nature. But if you are trying to perform a first-order approximation then you must first decide which voltage range(s) and which state(s) is of the most importance to your application because Z will vary with both state and voltage range. In some sense you should ask your colleague what he will use the Z value for because that will determine which Z value you give him. For instance if he wants to know what voltage will propagate down the TLine during the initial rising edge then you might approximate the Z by connecting two points on the HIGH VI curve in the middle of the operating range. This is poor approximation for at least three reasons: 1) The VI curve may be non-linear, 2) The transition from off to on may be non-linear, 3) The opposing state (LOW) may still be driving simultaneously and turns off non-linearly. Another example is that your colleague may want to use the driver Z to insure that reflections are absorbed. In this case you would need to figure out in which voltage range/state the reflections will occur. If they occur above/below the operating range of the device then the shunt curves (diodes) will come into play... Another methodology would be to create a linear driver (one with VI curves of constant slope) and that is tweaked until its response matches the response of the driver you are trying to approximate. My advice is to instead of providing an impedance, give him waveforms that cover all of the driving/loading cases (TLine/Receivers/Terminators/Process) you are expecting to see. Good luck, Chris Rokusek Innoveda > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM > To: Muranyi, Arpad > Cc: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > Hi Muranyi, Arpad: > Thanks for your advice! > one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from > my colleague to use > XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the > spawn -> VI viewer , > we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. > Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a > > delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. > > However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt > and low and many > many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate > approximation of the > output impedance of the driver . > The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of > the driver in the IBIS model > I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the > XNS (QUAD) model ,so that > I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the > simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS > interpret the output impedance of that driver ). > > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > > buffer a higher frequencies. > > > > Arpad Muranyi > > Intel Corporation > > ================================================================ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung > From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 12:51:10 2001 Received: from hypnos.cps.intel.com (hypnos.cps.intel.com [192.198.165.17]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Jp7508738 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs04-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.204]) by hypnos.cps.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id TAA19185 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:50:33 GMT Received: from fmsmsx26.fm.intel.com ([132.233.48.26]) by 132.233.48.204 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:49:44 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx26.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2TR454JG>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:49:43 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553B0@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:56:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" You have to add up all of the curves which are ON and then calculate the impedance. This may consist of a pulldown plus GND_clamp, plus Vcc_clamp if it is driving low, or pullup, and the same two clamps when it is driving high. I hope this helps, Arpad ======================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM To: Muranyi, Arpad Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Muranyi, Arpad: Thanks for your advice! one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from my colleague to use XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the spawn -> VI viewer , we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt and low and many many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate approximation of the output impedance of the driver . The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of the driver in the IBIS model I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the XNS (QUAD) model ,so that I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS interpret the output impedance of that driver ). thanks alot Jason Leung > Jason, > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > buffer a higher frequencies. > > Arpad Muranyi > Intel Corporation > ================================================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:08:12 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39K8A508858 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39K7aU01741; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39I6GD25304 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39Gh4507911 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3283 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:23 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.63.177]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAABA8; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:41:22 -0400 Sender: "Jason Leung" Message-Id: <3AD1E627.F7650FCC@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:41:12 -0400 From: Jason Leung Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott McMorrow CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2185 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jleung.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jason Leung Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jleung.vcf" begin:vcard n:Leung;Jason tel;fax:613-5993642 tel;work:613-7844425 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Alcatel CID;EMC ENGINEERING adr:;;600 March Road;Kanata;Ontario;K2K 2E6;CANADA version:2.1 email;internet:jleung@cid.alcatel.com title:SI/EMC ENGINEER x-mozilla-cpt:;168 fn:Jason Leung end:vcard --------------3665D0E1E7BEB8B8DB284F45-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:12:45 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39KCh508870 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39KCDk06804; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39I8gD27781 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f39GGj507713 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 89404 invoked by alias); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis-users@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 89385 invoked by uid 0); 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasthorizons.com) (63.225.95.1) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD1E041.88040233@vasthorizons.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:16:01 -0700 From: Scott McMorrow Organization: SiQual X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Leung CC: "ibis-users@eda.org" Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: <3AD1B598.C7F5B835@cid.alcatel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2351 Jason, If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can be calculated. For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the output impedance is 28.57 ohms. regards, scott -- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com Jason Leung wrote: > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 13:14:27 2001 Received: from easystreet01.easystreet.com (easystreet.com [206.26.36.40]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39KEO508877 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f39KDt608587; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.eda.org (server.eda.ORG [171.64.101.101]) by easystreet01.easystreet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f39IAND29556 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39Gmh507934 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id JAA10366; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2N9S0N1Q>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B4414690468D19C@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dagostino, Tom" To: "'Jason Leung'" , Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2466 If you do both you will find there is usually a difference in pullup and pulldown impedance. Makes the design job more interesting. What trade-off are you going to make? Tom Dagostino IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager SDD Mentor Graphics Corp. 503-685-1613 tom_dagostino@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: Scott McMorrow Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver Hi Scott McMorrow : Thanks very much for your advice! So if we wanted to find the output impedance for the driver ,we just have to go to 1V row and then read off the corresponding current value eh? Should I do that on the Pull up curve or the pull down curve? thanks Regards Jason Leung > Jason, > > If the ibis model has been extracted correctly, then the Ramp data > will tell you what the saturated output impedance is. > > The IBIS V/I curves give you the impedance of an output buffer > at any voltage. I usually use 1 volts as a good place to measure > impedance, since it is in the linear portion of the buffer curve. > For the pullup and pulldown curve, go to the 1V row and read > off the current. Since R=V/I, the output channel resistance can > be calculated. > > For example, if at 1 Volt the current is 35mA, then the > output impedance is 28.57 ohms. > > regards, > > scott > > -- > Scott McMorrow > Principal Engineer > SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering > 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road > Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 > (503) 885-1231 > http://www.siqual.com > > Jason Leung wrote: > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung From owner-ibis Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2001 Received: from mako.hhnetwk.com ([65.198.127.146]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f39LBg509088 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westerhoff (IDENT:root@ssh2.hhnetwk.com [192.168.0.2]) by mako.hhnetwk.com (8.11.0/bg-001114) with SMTP id f39LAYW08636 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:10:34 -0400 From: "Todd Westerhoff" To: Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:11:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: Jason, I prefer to measure (delta V)/(delta I) from the linear portion of the transistor curves. I just eyeball the curves and pick points from the largest portion of the curve I can perceive as "linear" (squinting is optional). There are potential pitfalls as Chris points out, but for common application the technique seems to work just fine. It's just a starting point anyway, as you should use simulation to test your assumptions. As others have pointed out, be sure the check the slopes for both the pullup and pulldown devices, as you need to balance the needs of both edges. Should you find yourself dealing with one transistor significantly stronger than the other, parallel termination to either power or ground may be in order, as was discussed last week. Todd. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Rokusek [mailto:crokusek@innoveda.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:17 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: output impedance of a driver Jason, The curves shown in the VI viewer are identical (in most cases) to the tables in the IBIS file. You can use the output XTK file directly just as you did with the IBIS file using the following mapping. IBIS XTK ------ ------- Pullup High Pulldown Low POWER_Clamp Shunt GND_Clamp Shunt_Neg However... It is somewhat dangerous to provide only a single static impedance value as others have pointed out due to the large variance over the typical operating range, current state, process variation, and dynamic switching nature. But if you are trying to perform a first-order approximation then you must first decide which voltage range(s) and which state(s) is of the most importance to your application because Z will vary with both state and voltage range. In some sense you should ask your colleague what he will use the Z value for because that will determine which Z value you give him. For instance if he wants to know what voltage will propagate down the TLine during the initial rising edge then you might approximate the Z by connecting two points on the HIGH VI curve in the middle of the operating range. This is poor approximation for at least three reasons: 1) The VI curve may be non-linear, 2) The transition from off to on may be non-linear, 3) The opposing state (LOW) may still be driving simultaneously and turns off non-linearly. Another example is that your colleague may want to use the driver Z to insure that reflections are absorbed. In this case you would need to figure out in which voltage range/state the reflections will occur. If they occur above/below the operating range of the device then the shunt curves (diodes) will come into play... Another methodology would be to create a linear driver (one with VI curves of constant slope) and that is tweaked until its response matches the response of the driver you are trying to approximate. My advice is to instead of providing an impedance, give him waveforms that cover all of the driving/loading cases (TLine/Receivers/Terminators/Process) you are expecting to see. Good luck, Chris Rokusek Innoveda > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:17 AM > To: Muranyi, Arpad > Cc: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > Hi Muranyi, Arpad: > Thanks for your advice! > one more question I would like to ask you: because I have been asked from > my colleague to use > XTK/XNS to find the output impedance of the driver, I know that in the > spawn -> VI viewer , > we can import the corresponding .wvi curve to observe the waveform. > Among all those waveform, you can just pick on one waveform, and then do a > > delta x and delta y function, then you will be able to find the impedance. > > However, there are so many curves I have to choose(shunt and high, shunt > and low and many > many more) , do u know which one I have to choose for an accurate > approximation of the > output impedance of the driver . > The whole point here is , since I know I can find the output impedance of > the driver in the IBIS model > I also wanted to try and find the output impedance of the driver in the > XNS (QUAD) model ,so that > I am able to compare what we have before the simulation and after the > simulation( i.e. how the XTK/XNS > interpret the output impedance of that driver ). > > thanks alot > Jason Leung > > > > Jason, > > > > The DC impedance can be found by dividing V/I on the IV curve of > > the buffer. You will find that you get a different value at > > practically any of the voltages due to the non linear shape of > > the IV curve. Plus, the process variation of a chip can give > > you a variation on the order of 2-3x. So finding the impedance > > and matching the T-line to it is like shooting at a moving target. > > > > The reason I said DC impedance above is because the capacitive > > components of the buffer will also alter the impedance of the > > buffer a higher frequencies. > > > > Arpad Muranyi > > Intel Corporation > > ================================================================ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:14 AM > > To: ibis-users@eda.org > > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > > > Hi all: > > Morning! > > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > > impedance in XNS. > > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > > > Thanks very much for your comment! > > Jason leung > From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 06:53:09 2001 Received: from kend-linux.xanoptix.com (host-64-65-199-187.choiceone.net [64.65.199.187]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3ADr6513637 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xanoptix.com (cburton@tower.xanoptix.com [10.20.1.211]) by kend-linux.xanoptix.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3ADqaW25165; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:52:36 -0400 Sender: cburton@kend-linux.xanoptix.com Message-ID: <3AD31022.A15BFA8E@xanoptix.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:52:34 -0400 From: Chris Burton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.11.00 9000/785) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: built in termination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the documentation... Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the current wasn't 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The resultant waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for comparison). I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. -- Chris Burton Cad Support 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 08:00:01 2001 Received: from ausxc08.us.dell.com ([143.166.99.216]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3AExs513965 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ausxc08.us.dell.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2FJKXJCH>; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:51:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com To: chris.burton@xanoptix.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: built in termination Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:51:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris, This sounds like an HSpice problem. Many of the models I use have pull-up terminators modeled in the power clamp. I see no reason why one couldn't model a termination to ground in the ground clamp. Aubrey Sparkman Signal Integrity Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com (512) 723-3592 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Burton [mailto:chris.burton@xanoptix.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: built in termination > > > > This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the > documentation... > > Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? > > I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for > s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I > simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the > current wasn't > 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The > resultant > waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I > ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for > comparison). > > I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I > resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected > directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. > > > -- > Chris Burton Cad Support > 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com > ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sparkman, Aubrey.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sparkman;Aubrey FN:Sparkman, Aubrey EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com REV:19990728T212924Z END:VCARD ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C1CD.BD032410-- From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 09:54:13 2001 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (jffdns01.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3AGs4514406 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs02-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.201]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id QAA24160 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:35 GMT Received: from orsmsx29.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.29]) by 192.168.70.201 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:53:35 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx29.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2TTCRKXT>; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:53:34 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553B5@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: built in termination Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:53:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris, We do this all the time without any problems in the waveforms (with the B-element). From your description, it sounds like your clamp waveforms are not correct. Even if you have on die terminations, the clamp curves should go through the origin. For example, if you have a termination that is connected to GND, your GND_clamp IV curve will look similar to a pulldown IV curve. In this case the Power_clamp IV curve should look like a normal diode curve having about zero current between GND and Vcc. If you have a terminator to Vcc, the mirror of the previous description should be true. Notice that the IV curve have zero current at the origin in both cases. If your curves don't look like this, than your buffer has either some fancy features (other than a normal terminator) or the IBIS model was not generated correctly. Keep in mind that it is very easy to double count for the terminator in these IV curves, and some numerical massaging of the data may be necessary to get it right. I do have a few foils on this issue in my IBIS class presentation which you can get from http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm under Articles/Training/IBIS_class_JEDEC.ZIP, in the PDF file, pages 78-81. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ========================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Chris Burton [mailto:chris.burton@xanoptix.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 6:53 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: built in termination This might be a simple question, but I couldn't find it in any of the documentation... Can IBIS model an input with a build in termination? I created a model with the termination in the spice simulation (for s2ibis). The ibischk3 didn't report any problems with it. But when I simulated it in Hspice, first Hspice complained that the current wasn't 0 at gnd (for gnd clamp) and 0 at vdd (for power clamp). The resultant waveforms were the correct shape but offset from the proper voltage (I ran the transistor version of the input in the same circuit for comparison). I then removed the termination and recreated the ibis model. I resimulated with an external termination in Hspice (but connected directly to the input node) and everything matched fine. -- Chris Burton Cad Support 603-546-0617 chris.burton@xanoptix.com From owner-ibis Tue Apr 10 11:14:56 2001 Received: from ns02.newbridge.com (ns02.newbridge.com [192.75.23.75]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3AIEf514790 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9753 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 18:12:28 -0000 Received: from portal1.newbridge.com (HELO kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com) (192.75.23.76) by ns02.newbridge.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 18:12:28 -0000 Received: from kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com by kanata-mh1.ca.newbridge.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@eda.org; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:42 -0400 Received: from cid.alcatel.com ([138.120.105.38]) by kanmail01.ca.newbridge.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA679; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:41 -0400 Message-Id: <3AD34C65.49C596E@cid.alcatel.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:09:42 -0400 From: "Jason Leung" Organization: Alcatel CID X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Mayer , ibis-users@eda.org CC: Jason Leung , Mamadou Kane , Perry Qu , DORIN OPREA Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86" --------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael: Thanks for showing me the way to find the output impedance!! It really helps me. Now, I would like to show you some interesting results: Right now I am working on LVT162244 from TI and I am trying to measure the output impedance of the driver .I have used the method you show me to do (i.e. -motive and I am able to get the output impedance for the high state which is 36.5 ohms and output impedance for the low state which is 29.81 ohms) . The schematic that I have used for testing is : [Image] where I have got a driver ->tline of 0.01 inch 60 ohms , series resistance ->tline of 10 inch 60 ohms-> and receiver. Since I wanted to compare the real value for the output impedance of the driver , I have tried different values for the series termination. The calculations are like these: I assumed the output impedance of the driver is in high state , so RH=36.5 , in order to match that with the tline, I have to use 23.5 ohms for the series termination, and I do the same thing by assuming the output impedance of the driver is in low state, then the series termination is 30.19 ohms . The third case is (RH+RL)/2 =33.2 so the series termination 60-33.2 =26.8 ohms.the last case is when the series termination is 60 ohms and you can see from the output waveform : [Image] here we see that the red curve is with series termination of 23.5 ohms , and the one below the red curve is when series termination of 26.8 ohms and the third one is when series termination of 30.15 ohms and finally series termination of 60 ohms. This is interesting to us because at the red curve where series termination is 23.5 ohms the rising edge is ok , but the falling edge is not ok . When the series termination is 26.845 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is ok. Also when the series termination is 30.19 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is ok.Finally for the series termination is 60 ohms , the rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is not ok. My question is how do we determine the output impedance for the driver in this case, whether we should use RH , RL or (RH+RL)/2 . ??? Please feel free to comment. Thanks Jason Leung Michael Mayer wrote: > You can use ibis2xtk. One of the options generates a BLAST (formerly MOTIVE) > model. This is a simple linear model that includes the high and low > impedance. Try ibis2xtk -motive > > It will generate a .src file. At the bottom of the file will be a DEFDRIVER > statement for each buffer. RL and RH are the low and high impedances. > > ======================================================================= > Mike Mayer mmayer@innoveda.com > Applications Engineer Office: (608)523-1960 > Innoveda, Inc Mobile: (608)575-2732 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com] > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:14 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver > > Hi all: > Morning! > I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can > match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination. > The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate > the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their > rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output > impedance in XNS. > My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a > driver? AND how did you achieve that? > > Thanks very much for your comment! > Jason leung --------------A75F36A3E5720B0FD4EF9C86 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------463A76A7F4ED4C4B9DA69617" --------------463A76A7F4ED4C4B9DA69617 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael:
Thanks for showing me the way to find the output impedance!! It really helps me.
Now, I would like to show you some interesting results:
Right now I am working on LVT162244 from TI and I am trying to measure the output impedance of the driver .I have used the method you show me to do (i.e. -motive and I am able to get the output impedance for the high state which is 36.5 ohms and output impedance for the low
state which is 29.81 ohms) .
The schematic  that I have used for testing is :
 

where I have got a driver ->tline of 0.01 inch 60 ohms , series resistance ->tline of 10 inch 60 ohms-> and receiver.

Since I wanted to compare the real value for the  output impedance of the driver , I have tried different values for the series termination.
The calculations are like these: I assumed  the output impedance of the driver is in high state , so RH=36.5 , in order to match that with the tline,
I have to use 23.5 ohms for the series termination, and I do the same thing by assuming the output impedance of the driver is in low state, then
the series termination is 30.19 ohms . The third case is (RH+RL)/2 =33.2 so the series termination 60-33.2 =26.8 ohms.the last case is when the series termination is 60 ohms

and you can see from the output waveform :


 

here we see that the red curve is with series termination of 23.5 ohms , and the one below the red curve is when series termination of 26.8 ohms
and the third one is when  series termination of 30.15 ohms and finally series termination of 60 ohms.
This is interesting to us because at the red curve where series termination is  23.5 ohms the rising edge is ok , but the falling edge is not ok .
When the series termination is 26.845 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  ok. Also when the series termination is 30.19 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  ok.Finally for the series termination is 60 ohms , the  rising edge is not ok , but the falling edge is  not ok.
My question is how do we determine the output impedance for the driver in this case, whether we should use RH , RL or (RH+RL)/2 . ???
Please feel free to comment.
Thanks
Jason Leung


 
 

Michael Mayer wrote:

You can use ibis2xtk. One of the options generates a BLAST (formerly MOTIVE)
model. This is a simple linear model that includes the high and low
impedance. Try ibis2xtk -motive

It will generate a .src file. At the bottom of the file will be a DEFDRIVER
statement for each buffer. RL and RH are the low and high impedances.

=======================================================================
Mike Mayer                                          mmayer@innoveda.com
Applications Engineer                             Office: (608)523-1960
Innoveda, Inc                                     Mobile: (608)575-2732

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Leung [mailto:jleung@cid.alcatel.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:14 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: Re: output impedance of a driver

Hi all:
Morning!
I am trying to obtain the output impedance of a driver, so that I can
match the driver with a transmission line and proper termination.
The way that I have tried is I used the IBIS model and then translate
the model into QUAD model, so that I can used the XNS to observe their
rising and falling waveform. Moreover I am trying to find its output
impedance in XNS.
My question is : Does anyone ever try finding the output impedance of a
driver? AND how did you achieve that?

Thanks very much for your comment!
Jason leung

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Adam.Tambone@fairchildsemi.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:24:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on SPNOTES01/Corporate/FSC(Release 5.0.6a |January 17, 2001) at 04/11/2001 10:24:04 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Moo-yeul, The voltages in the V-t waveforms represent the output voltages of the DUT. The node these voltages are taken from is the output node. The question is what were the loading conditions in which the data was taken and did it include package parasitics. The sub-parameters: L_fixture, R_fixture, V_fixture, C_fixture specify the loading conditions in which the V-t data was taken. The sub-parameters: L_dut, R_dut, C_dut specify the package parasitics that are included in the V-t data taken. If the above subparameters are not included in the IBIS datasheet then the V-t data was taken at a node that does not include packaging or a load. The effect of c_comp is included in the V-t data. See pgs42-44 of the 3.2 spec. Adam Tambone From owner-ibis Thu Apr 12 08:15:08 2001 Received: from mail2.lsil.com (mail2.lsil.com [147.145.40.22]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3CFF5527519 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhbs.lsil.com (mhbs [147.145.31.100]) by mail2.lsil.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09950 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.21.35.125] by mhbs.lsil.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@vhdl.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:13:29 -0700 Received: by exccolorado.co.lsil.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:26 -0600 Message-Id: <2ADA45B8C19AD111BBEA00805FBE1341046DBB81@exccolorado.co.lsil.com> From: "Barnes, Larry" To: "'Ibis Users group'" Subject: Ibisx-conference call Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:24 -0600 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <2ADA45B8C19AD111BBEA00805FBE1341046DBB81@exccolorado.co.lsil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2CC2AF0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2CC2AF0 Content-Type: text/plain Top levei june fInal 1year tools 1year after that ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2CC2AF0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhsPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQuAAQAhAAAAQ0E2RTY3QzE0QzJGRDUxMUJDNEEwMDgwNUZCRTEz NDEANwcBBYADAA4AAADRBwQADAAJAAoAGAAEABcBASCAAwAOAAAA0QcEAAwACQAKABkABAAYAQEJ gAEAIQAAAENBNkU2N0MxNEMyRkQ1MTFCQzRBMDA4MDVGQkUxMzQxADcHAQSAAQAWAAAASWJpc3gt Y29uZmVyZW5jZSBjYWxsAAAIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYACAQAACAAAAADACYAAAAAAEAAOQDw KsyyYsPAAQMA8T8JBAAAHgAxQAEAAAAIAAAATEJBUk5FUwADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAACAAAAExC QVJORVMAAwAZQAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAIkAAACFAAAA4AAAAExaRnUctdophwAKAQ0DQ3RleHQB9/8C pAPkBesCgwBQAvMGtAKDJjIDxQIAY2gKwHNl2HQwIAcTAoB9CoAIzz8J2QKACoQLNxLCAdAgVABv cCBsZXZlaQAganVuZSBmSUJuB0AgMXllCsF07m8G8AQgGSRhAYAEkBlwCRNwdH0a8AAAAAMA/T/k BAAAHgBwAAEAAAAWAAAASWJpc3gtY29uZmVyZW5jZSBjYWxsAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcDDYrLM wWduyy9MEdW8SgCAX74TQQAAAgFHAAEAAAA/AAAAYz1VUzthPSA7cD1TeW1iaW9zIExvZ2ljIElu O2w9RVhDLUNPTE9SQURPLTAxMDQxMjE1MTAyNFotNzQxMTgAAAIB+T8BAAAAUwAAAAAAAADcp0DI wEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TWU1CSU9TIExPR0lDIElOQy4vT1U9Q09TMS9DTj1SRUNJ UElFTlRTL0NOPUxCQVJORVMAAB4A+D8BAAAADgAAAEJhcm5lcywgTGFycnkAAAAeADhAAQAAAAgA AABMQkFSTkVTAAIB+z8BAAAAUwAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TWU1C SU9TIExPR0lDIElOQy4vT1U9Q09TMS9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRTL0NOPUxCQVJORVMAAB4A+j8BAAAA DgAAAEJhcm5lcywgTGFycnkAAAAeADlAAQAAAAgAAABMQkFSTkVTAEAABzCmDcWyYsPAAUAACDA+ seyzYsPAAR4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAB0OAQAAABYAAABJYmlzeC1jb25mZXJlbmNlIGNhbGwA AAAeADUQAQAAAEMAAAA8MkFEQTQ1QjhDMTlBRDExMUJCRUEwMDgwNUZCRTEzNDEwNDZEQkI4MUBl eGNjb2xvcmFkby5jby5sc2lsLmNvbT4AAAMANgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhBHKYWo AwAHECkAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgAIEAEAAAAqAAAAVE9QTEVWRUlKVU5FRklOQUwxWUVB UlRPT0xTMVlFQVJBRlRFUlRIQVQAAAACAX8AAQAAAEMAAAA8MkFEQTQ1QjhDMTlBRDExMUJCRUEw MDgwNUZCRTEzNDEwNDZEQkI4MUBleGNjb2xvcmFkby5jby5sc2lsLmNvbT4AAJjn ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2CC2AF0-- 700 (PDT) Received: from mhbs.lsil.com (mhbs [147.145.31.100]) by mail2.lsil.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09945 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.21.35.125] by mhbs.lsil.com with ESMTP for ibis-users@vhdl.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:13:28 -0700 Received: by exccolorado.co.lsil.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:26 -0600 Message-Id: <2ADA45B8C19AD111BBEA00805FBE1341046DBB83@exccolorado.co.lsil.com> From: "Barnes, Larry" To: "'Ibis Users group'" Subject: Word format document Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:24 -0600 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <2ADA45B8C19AD111BBEA00805FBE1341046DBB83@exccolorado.co.lsil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2F25090" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2F25090 Content-Type: text/plain ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2F25090 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQuAAQAhAAAAQ0U2RTY3QzE0QzJGRDUxMUJDNEEwMDgwNUZCRTEz NDEAOwcBBYADAA4AAADRBwQADAAJAAoAGAAEABcBASCAAwAOAAAA0QcEAAwACQAKABoABAAZAQEJ gAEAIQAAAENFNkU2N0MxNEMyRkQ1MTFCQzRBMDA4MDVGQkUxMzQxADsHAQSAAQAVAAAAV29yZCBm b3JtYXQgZG9jdW1lbnQAxAcBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQOQBgBIAwAAHwAAAAMAJgAAAAAAQAA5AJBQ 8rJiw8ABAwDxPwkEAAAeADFAAQAAAAgAAABMQkFSTkVTAAMAGkAAAAAAHgAwQAEAAAAIAAAATEJB Uk5FUwADABlAAAAAAAMA/T/kBAAAHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAV29yZCBmb3JtYXQgZG9jdW1lbnQAAAAA AgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcDDYrLywWduzy9MEdW8SgCAX74TQQAAAgFHAAEAAAA/AAAAYz1VUzthPSA7 cD1TeW1iaW9zIExvZ2ljIEluO2w9RVhDLUNPTE9SQURPLTAxMDQxMjE1MTAyNFotNzQxMjAAAAIB +T8BAAAAUwAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TWU1CSU9TIExPR0lDIElO Qy4vT1U9Q09TMS9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRTL0NOPUxCQVJORVMAAB4A+D8BAAAADgAAAEJhcm5lcywg TGFycnkAAAAeADhAAQAAAAgAAABMQkFSTkVTAAIB+z8BAAAAUwAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAAr L+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1TWU1CSU9TIExPR0lDIElOQy4vT1U9Q09TMS9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRTL0NO PUxCQVJORVMAAB4A+j8BAAAADgAAAEJhcm5lcywgTGFycnkAAAAeADlAAQAAAAgAAABMQkFSTkVT AEAABzD69++yYsPAAUAACDB2TQm0YsPAAR4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAB0OAQAAABUAAABXb3Jk IGZvcm1hdCBkb2N1bWVudAAAAAAeADUQAQAAAEMAAAA8MkFEQTQ1QjhDMTlBRDExMUJCRUEwMDgw NUZCRTEzNDEwNDZEQkI4M0BleGNjb2xvcmFkby5jby5sc2lsLmNvbT4AAAMANgAAAAAACwApAAAA AAALACMAAAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgAIEAEAAAABAAAAAAAA AAIBfwABAAAAQwAAADwyQURBNDVCOEMxOUFEMTExQkJFQTAwODA1RkJFMTM0MTA0NkRCQjgzQGV4 Y2NvbG9yYWRvLmNvLmxzaWwuY29tPgAAs60= ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0C362.B2F25090-- From owner-ibis Fri Apr 13 07:43:49 2001 Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (IDENT:0@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3DEhj503468 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlantis.phaseiv.com ([216.180.17.1]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3DEhA531564 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:43:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ATLANTIS/SpoolDir by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 13 Apr 01 09:43:08 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by ATLANTIS (Mercury 1.44); 13 Apr 01 09:42:51 -0600 Received: from KYOUNG (216.180.17.201) by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 13 Apr 01 09:42:45 -0600 From: "Kris Young" To: Subject: arbitrary length in ebd files? Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:42:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Hello: I have a question about path descriptions in electronic board description (ebd) files (IBIS 3.2). I'm wondering how to get an accurate simulation of signal reflections when the path length is given in terms of an arbitrary length. It seems like running an accurate SI simulation will require an estimate as to what factor to scale the path lengths by to get them to match the device specified by the ebd. Why isn't there a way to specify a scale factor in the ebd file? Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your assistance. Regards, Kris Young Phase IV Systems, Inc. Huntsville, AL From owner-ibis Fri Apr 13 08:42:51 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3DFgm503739 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id IAA01779; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2X80CFLQ>; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:42:14 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B44146901BAD1CF@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dunbar, Tony" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: arbitrary length in ebd files? Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:42:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Kris, It's not that intuitive, so don't feel bad for missing this. The "scaling factor" is in the L and C values for the path. If you look at the following (fairly well documented) example, you can see/derive from the scale of the L and C values that sqrt(LC) gives an answer of delay per unit length in s/m (i.e. seconds per meter). But I also need the scale of the L and C values to be correct to obtain the correct Zo=sqrt(L/C). So I then use a Len value to specify the length of the segment. In this example, one of segment my lengths needs to be 520mil but I'm working in meters. Hope this helps! Regards, Tony [Path Description] XYZ Pin B18 | 1. Path 1 Len = 0 L = 168.00e-12 C = 0.00 R = 0.006 / | 2. Via Len = 0 L = 570.00e-12 C = 0.00 R = 0.0021 / | 3. Seg. #2 Use slow = 520mil, HighZ 50.3ohm. Len = 0.013205 L = 3.591440e-07 C = 1.419672e-10 R = 6.931417e01 / | 4. Seg. #1 Use slow = 80mil, HighZ 42.46ohm. Len = 0.002032 L = 3.072277e-07 C = 1.704113e-10 R = 5.862795e01 / | 5. Die bump Len = 0 L = 20.00e-12 C = 0.0 R = 0.002 / Node U1.B18 -----Original Message----- From: Kris Young [mailto:kyoung@phaseiv.com] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:43 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: arbitrary length in ebd files? Hello: I have a question about path descriptions in electronic board description (ebd) files (IBIS 3.2). I'm wondering how to get an accurate simulation of signal reflections when the path length is given in terms of an arbitrary length. It seems like running an accurate SI simulation will require an estimate as to what factor to scale the path lengths by to get them to match the device specified by the ebd. Why isn't there a way to specify a scale factor in the ebd file? Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your assistance. Regards, Kris Young Phase IV Systems, Inc. Huntsville, AL From owner-ibis Fri Apr 13 08:56:57 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3DFus503826 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id IAA02865; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2X80CFM8>; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:56:19 -0700 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B441469041775C6@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Reid, Chris" To: "Dunbar, Tony" , ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: arbitrary length in ebd files? Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:54:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, There is no specified units for the length of the transmission lines in EBD because it is not needed. Given any particular specification of the transmission line properties it does not matter wether you take the units to be inches, feet, meeters, or miles. The answer will always be the same. The reason for this is that L and C are given per unit length. L is Henrys per unit length. C is Farads per unit length. So, the impedance of the line is sqrt(L/C) and the length unit cancels in the ratio. The delay per unit length is sqrt(LC) so the total delay is sqrt(LC)*Len, where again the length units cancel. Thus the simulator does not need to know the scale to get a unique answer. The length unit just needs to be consistent. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Dunbar, Tony [mailto:tony_dunbar] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 8:42 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: arbitrary length in ebd files? Hi Kris, It's not that intuitive, so don't feel bad for missing this. The "scaling factor" is in the L and C values for the path. If you look at the following (fairly well documented) example, you can see/derive from the scale of the L and C values that sqrt(LC) gives an answer of delay per unit length in s/m (i.e. seconds per meter). But I also need the scale of the L and C values to be correct to obtain the correct Zo=sqrt(L/C). So I then use a Len value to specify the length of the segment. In this example, one of segment my lengths needs to be 520mil but I'm working in meters. Hope this helps! Regards, Tony [Path Description] XYZ Pin B18 | 1. Path 1 Len = 0 L = 168.00e-12 C = 0.00 R = 0.006 / | 2. Via Len = 0 L = 570.00e-12 C = 0.00 R = 0.0021 / | 3. Seg. #2 Use slow = 520mil, HighZ 50.3ohm. Len = 0.013205 L = 3.591440e-07 C = 1.419672e-10 R = 6.931417e01 / | 4. Seg. #1 Use slow = 80mil, HighZ 42.46ohm. Len = 0.002032 L = 3.072277e-07 C = 1.704113e-10 R = 5.862795e01 / | 5. Die bump Len = 0 L = 20.00e-12 C = 0.0 R = 0.002 / Node U1.B18 -----Original Message----- From: Kris Young [mailto:kyoung@phaseiv.com] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:43 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: arbitrary length in ebd files? Hello: I have a question about path descriptions in electronic board description (ebd) files (IBIS 3.2). I'm wondering how to get an accurate simulation of signal reflections when the path length is given in terms of an arbitrary length. It seems like running an accurate SI simulation will require an estimate as to what factor to scale the path lengths by to get them to match the device specified by the ebd. Why isn't there a way to specify a scale factor in the ebd file? Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your assistance. Regards, Kris Young Phase IV Systems, Inc. Huntsville, AL From owner-ibis Fri Apr 13 11:22:10 2001 Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3DIM7504874 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arafiq-u30.cisco.com (arafiq-u30.cisco.com [10.34.20.186]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA24259 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arafiq-u30.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id LAA23495 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arafiq@cisco.com Message-ID: <3AD743AE.2D4C6F4A@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:21:34 -0700 From: "Abdulrahman Rafiq (Abbey)" Reply-To: arafiq@cisco.com Organization: cisco systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Subscription request Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F5447CF293E6871453E62F9D" --------------F5447CF293E6871453E62F9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please add me to your mailer Thanks -- ********************************************************************* Abdulrahman A. Rafiq (AKA Abbey) Hardware/Layout Engineer CISCO SYSTEMS INC. Signal Integrity and Packaging Group 230 West Tasman Drive Mail Stop: SJ/G/2/3 San Jose, Ca 95134 (Bldg: G-2, Office: 227) Voice: (408) 527-5540 Fax : (408) 526-8573 Pager: (408) 301-8880 email: arafiq@cisco.com epage: arafiq@epage.cisco.com Webpage: http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq Group Page: http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com ********************************************************************* --------------F5447CF293E6871453E62F9D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please add me to your mailer
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  --------------F5447CF293E6871453E62F9D-- From owner-ibis Fri Apr 13 17:46:08 2001 Received: from mail01-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-1.pilot.net [198.232.147.16]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3E0k5506516 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsgate.xilinx.com (mailgate.xilinx.com [149.199.60.204]) by mail01-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id RAA17401 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliff.xsj.xilinx.com (cliff [149.199.38.103]) by newsgate.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17935 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.xilinx.com (newman [149.199.37.215]) by cliff.xsj.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13972 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xilinx.com ([149.199.52.96]) by newman.xilinx.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GBRBFT00.FB8; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:45:29 -0700 Sender: "Prasad Rau" Message-ID: <3AD7A084.250A8EAC@xilinx.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:57:40 -0700 From: Prasad Rau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: On chip Active termination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On our current design we support several standards using controlled impedance. By using this scheme we can mimic driver or receiver end terminations for standards like SSTL,HSTLs and GTL. The onchip termination is done using active devices as opposed to passive elements. For example in the SSTL2 Class I the parallel termination is at the receiver end. Using the controlled impedance scheme we can eliminate the series & parallel termination resistor son the board. I have created seperate IBIS models for the output and the input. When I use the output model and drive the input model through a Tline using the HyperLynx tool I am not seeing the right levels at the receiver end. It is telling me that the termination at the receiver is missing. I know that the input IBIS model makes sense because if I look at the GND clamp curve I observe ~ 0mA current at 1.3V ( which is the valid voltage level with the output tristated). The same driver model if it drives a non controlled impedance receiver with the appropriate board termination at the receiver gives me the correct levels at the receiver. Is HyperLynx unable to recognize onchip termination input IBIS models ? Has aynone worked with controlled impedance and have suggestions in modelling them in IBIS. Appreciate your help in this regard. Thanks in advance, Regards, Prasad Rau Xilinx From owner-ibis Sat Apr 14 11:01:09 2001 Received: from pop.nwlink.com (pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3EI12508987 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com (ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.246.210]) by pop.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04975; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com by ip210.c246.blk1.bel.nwlink.com via smtpd (for pop.nwlink.com [209.20.130.39]) with SMTP; 14 Apr 2001 18:00:27 UT Received: from [192.168.149.1] (hlgw.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.1]) by mail (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with SMTP id LAA15003; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:00:26 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01c0c50c$d2f9f590$9594a8c0@hyperlynx.com> From: "Matthew Flora" To: "Prasad Rau" , Received: from no.name.available by [192.168.149.1] via smtpd (for mail.hyperlynx.com [192.168.149.2]) with SMTP; 14 Apr 2001 18:00:26 UT References: <3AD7A084.250A8EAC@xilinx.com> Subject: Re: On chip Active termination Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:00:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Dear Prasad Rau, Might I suggest that you ask technical support for the HyperLynx products at support@hyperlynx.com or (425) 869-2320? Best regards, Matthew Flora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prasad Rau" To: Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 5:57 PM Subject: On chip Active termination > Hi, > > On our current design we support several standards using controlled impedance. By using this scheme > we can mimic driver or receiver end terminations for standards like SSTL,HSTLs > and GTL. The onchip termination is done using active devices as opposed to passive > elements. For example in the SSTL2 Class I the parallel termination is at the receiver end. > Using the controlled impedance scheme we can eliminate the series & parallel termination resistor son the board. > I have created seperate IBIS models for the output and the input. When I use the output model > and drive the input model through a Tline using the HyperLynx tool I am not seeing the right > levels at the receiver end. It is telling me that the termination at the receiver is missing. I know > that the input IBIS model makes sense because if I look at the GND clamp curve I observe ~ 0mA > current at 1.3V ( which is the valid voltage level with the output tristated). The same driver model > if it drives a non controlled impedance receiver with the appropriate board termination at the receiver > gives me the correct levels at the receiver. > > Is HyperLynx unable to recognize onchip termination input IBIS models ? Has aynone > worked with controlled impedance and have suggestions in modelling them in IBIS. > > > Appreciate your help in this regard. > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Regards, > > Prasad Rau > Xilinx > > > From owner-ibis Sun Apr 15 20:08:43 2001 Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr ([202.30.128.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3G38d504523 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3G37mr10335 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:07:48 +0900 (KST) Received: from hic2000 ([166.125.10.21]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3G37lH10327 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:07:47 +0900 (KST) From: "=?euc-kr?b?sK3Bvsij?=" Reply-To: To: ibis-users@eda.org Cc: Subject: About EBD Generation Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:07:40 +0900 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on HIC2000/S/HEI(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 2001/04/16 12:07:40 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled

Hi, All

 

I'm using Cadece SPECCTRAQuest as my sys= tem level simulator.

In case of SPECCTRAQuest, it does not su= pport EBD model generation.

Is there any software which produces EBD= from gerber ?

Is there any freeware for it ?

If any s/w is not available for me, how = can I generate EBD with ease ?

 

Thanks in adva= nce,

J.H. Kang

= From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 00:28:01 2001 Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr ([202.30.128.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3G7Rs505495 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3G7R4T18816 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:27:04 +0900 (KST) Received: from hic2000 ([166.125.10.21]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3G7R3H18808 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:27:03 +0900 (KST) From: "=?euc-kr?b?sK3Bvsij?=" Reply-To: To: ibis-users@eda.org Cc: Subject: About EBD Generation Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:26:55 +0900 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on HIC2000/S/HEI(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 2001/04/16 04:26:56 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled

Hi, All

I'm using Cadece SPECCTRAQuest as my sys= tem level simulator.

In case of SPECCTRAQuest, it does not su= pport EBD model generation.

Is there any software which produces EBD= from gerber ?

Is there any freeware for it ?

If any s/w is not available for me, how = can I generate EBD with ease ?

Thanks in advance,

J.H. Kang

= From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 09:57:21 2001 Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (fmfdns02.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3GGvF507291 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs02-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.202]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id QAA07729; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:56:24 GMT Received: from fmsmsx18.intel.com ([132.233.48.18]) by 132.233.48.202 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:56:24 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx18.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <299X26H9>; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:56:23 -0700 Message-ID: <7FD5C79AD680D211AC4100A0C96B501C084A7645@orsmsx49.jf.intel.com> From: "Peters, Stephen" To: "'Prasad Rau'" , ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: On chip Active termination Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:56:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Prasad: If by 'controlled impedance' you mean builing termination resistors or clamps on die then yes, IBIS does support this. Simply include the on die termination in the circuit when extracting the I/V data for the [Gnd Clamp] or [PWR Clamp] curves. Also, everyone please note that for vendor specific tool questions you should contact the vendor directly. Per EIA policy, the ibis-users and ibis reflectors are for IBIS related discussions only. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. Vice Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum -----Original Message----- From: Prasad Rau [mailto:prasad.rau@xilinx.com] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 5:58 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: On chip Active termination Hi, On our current design we support several standards using controlled impedance. By using this scheme we can mimic driver or receiver end terminations for standards like SSTL,HSTLs and GTL. The onchip termination is done using active devices as opposed to passive elements. For example in the SSTL2 Class I the parallel termination is at the receiver end. Using the controlled impedance scheme we can eliminate the series & parallel termination resistor son the board. I have created seperate IBIS models for the output and the input. When I use the output model and drive the input model through a Tline using the HyperLynx tool I am not seeing the right levels at the receiver end. It is telling me that the termination at the receiver is missing. I know that the input IBIS model makes sense because if I look at the GND clamp curve I observe ~ 0mA current at 1.3V ( which is the valid voltage level with the output tristated). The same driver model if it drives a non controlled impedance receiver with the appropriate board termination at the receiver gives me the correct levels at the receiver. Is HyperLynx unable to recognize onchip termination input IBIS models ? Has aynone worked with controlled impedance and have suggestions in modelling them in IBIS. Appreciate your help in this regard. Thanks in advance, Regards, Prasad Rau Xilinx From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 11:12:44 2001 Received: from mail03-oak.pilot.net (mail-oak-3.pilot.net [198.232.147.18]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3GICg507654 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsgate.xilinx.com (mailgate.xilinx.com [149.199.60.204]) by mail03-oak.pilot.net with ESMTP id LAA11459 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliff.xsj.xilinx.com (cliff [149.199.38.103]) by newsgate.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26894 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.xilinx.com (newman [149.199.37.215]) by cliff.xsj.xilinx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15182 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xilinx.com ([149.199.52.96]) by newman.xilinx.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GBWD7B00.94X; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:11:35 -0700 Sender: "Prasad Rau" Message-ID: <3ADB38BB.C61088F1@xilinx.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:23:55 -0700 From: Prasad Rau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Peters Stephen" CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: On chip Active termination References: <7FD5C79AD680D211AC4100A0C96B501C084A7645@orsmsx49.jf.intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stephen, Thanks for your feedback. My intention was to make sure I was not making a modelling mistake before I questioned the tool. I should have perhaps, framed my questions differently. My apologies to the IBIS community. Regards, Prasad "Peters, Stephen" wrote: > Hi Prasad: > > If by 'controlled impedance' you mean builing termination resistors or > clamps on die then yes, IBIS does support this. Simply include the on die > termination in the circuit when extracting the I/V data for the [Gnd Clamp] > or [PWR Clamp] curves. > > Also, everyone please note that for vendor specific tool questions you > should contact the vendor directly. Per EIA policy, the ibis-users and ibis > reflectors are for IBIS related discussions only. > > Regards, > Stephen Peters > Intel Corp. > Vice Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prasad Rau [mailto:prasad.rau@xilinx.com] > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 5:58 PM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: On chip Active termination > > Hi, > > On our current design we support several standards using controlled > impedance. By using this scheme > we can mimic driver or receiver end terminations for standards like > SSTL,HSTLs > and GTL. The onchip termination is done using active devices as opposed to > passive > elements. For example in the SSTL2 Class I the parallel termination is at > the receiver end. > Using the controlled impedance scheme we can eliminate the series & parallel > termination resistor son the board. > I have created seperate IBIS models for the output and the input. When I use > the output model > and drive the input model through a Tline using the HyperLynx tool I am not > seeing the right > levels at the receiver end. It is telling me that the termination at the > receiver is missing. I know > that the input IBIS model makes sense because if I look at the GND clamp > curve I observe ~ 0mA > current at 1.3V ( which is the valid voltage level with the output > tristated). The same driver model > if it drives a non controlled impedance receiver with the appropriate board > termination at the receiver > gives me the correct levels at the receiver. > > Is HyperLynx unable to recognize onchip termination input IBIS models ? Has > aynone > worked with controlled impedance and have suggestions in modelling them in > IBIS. > > Appreciate your help in this regard. > > Thanks in advance, > > Regards, > > Prasad Rau > Xilinx From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 11:36:11 2001 Received: from zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (zcamail05.zca.compaq.com [161.114.32.105]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3GIa8507788 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id 1B4701EB; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net (exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net [16.103.129.53]) by zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EB132B; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id <27D2HVP1>; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:34:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ingraham, Andrew" To: "'Prasad Rau'" Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: On chip Active termination Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:34:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain ... if I look at the GND clamp curve I observe ~ 0mA > current at 1.3V ( which is the valid voltage level with the output > tristated). This may not be directly related to your question.... I am just curious whether it is appropriate to put your active termination in the [GND clamp] curve. If a supply voltage is involved in this on-chip termination, then the I/V characteristics would vary with the supply voltage. Putting the termination I/V data in only the [GND Clamp] table means that it would not vary with supply voltage, in the IBIS model. If the termination is (or behaves like) something other than a resistance to just the supply, then you could split the termination current between the [GND Clamp] and [POWER Clamp] tables, to make the model more accurate. Sorry if this is what you have already done. Regards, Andy From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 14:45:53 2001 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3GLjo508636 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: [from pobox4.mot.com (pobox4.mot.com [10.64.251.243]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id OAA07530 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:45:18 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from msgphx2.sps.mot.com (msgphx2.sps.mot.com [216.3.20.11]) by pobox4.mot.com (MOT-pobox4 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA24680 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:45:17 -0700 (MST)] Received: from tx11fmtcf101 ([163.11.60.190]) by msgphx2.sps.mot.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA3E9E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <00e301c0c6be$849cfa60$be3c0ba3@sps.mot.com> From: "Yaping Zhou" To: Subject: signup for IBIS Users' Group Reflector Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:45:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Motorola-Sent-Wireless: 1 Thanks, -- ************************************** Yaping Zhou (r3aadv) (512) 933-5803 Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector Final Manufacturing Technology Center Ed Bluestein, Austin, Texas ************************************** From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 17:03:49 2001 Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr ([202.30.128.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3H03j508930 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3H02rD09956 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:02:53 +0900 (KST) Received: from hic2000 ([166.125.10.21]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3H02pH09928 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:02:52 +0900 (KST) From: "=?euc-kr?b?sK3Bvsij?=" Reply-To: To: ibis-users@eda.org Cc: Subject: cadence dml (BoardModel) syntax Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:02:41 +0900 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on HIC2000/S/HEI(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 2001/04/17 09:02:43 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled

I n= eed to convert Cadence dml file(BoardModel) to EBD file.

So,= I need to understand syntax of dml file exactly.

But= I have little information about dml.

Is = there any Cadence engineer who can help me ?

I n= eed detail information about dml syntax.

 

= From owner-ibis Mon Apr 16 17:19:27 2001 Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (fmfdns02.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3H0JP508983 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs02-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.202]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.35 2001/02/12 09:03:45 smothers Exp $) with SMTP id AAA19707; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:16:55 GMT Received: from fmsmsx18.intel.com ([132.233.48.18]) by 132.233.48.202 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:16:55 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx18.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <299XKAXH>; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: <7FD5C79AD680D211AC4100A0C96B501C084A7651@orsmsx49.jf.intel.com> From: "Peters, Stephen" To: "'???'" , ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: cadence dml (BoardModel) syntax Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:16:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C6D3.AEA9DA20" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C6D3.AEA9DA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Hi Mr Kang: For questions related directly to a vendors product please contact the vendor directly. Per EIA policy, the ibis-users reflector is for discussion of quesitons related to IBIS models only. Thanks and regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. Vice Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum -----Original Message----- From: jhkang@sr.hynix.com [mailto:jhkang@sr.hynix.com] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 5:03 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: cadence dml (BoardModel) syntax I need to convert Cadence dml file(BoardModel) to EBD file. So, I need to understand syntax of dml file exactly. But I have little information about dml. Is there any Cadence engineer who can help me ? I need detail information about dml syntax. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C6D3.AEA9DA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled
Hi Mr=20 Kang:
 
 =20 For questions related directly to a vendors product please contact the = vendor=20 directly.  Per EIA policy, the ibis-users reflector is for = discussion=20 of quesitons related to IBIS models only.
 
 =20 Thanks and regards,
 =20 Stephen Peters
 =20 Intel Corp.
 =20 Vice Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum
 =20
-----Original Message-----
From: = jhkang@sr.hynix.com=20 [mailto:jhkang@sr.hynix.com]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 = 5:03=20 PM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: cadence dml=20 (BoardModel) syntax

I need to convert=20 Cadence dml file(BoardModel) to EBD file.

So, I need to=20 understand syntax of dml file exactly.

But I have little=20 information about dml.

Is there any=20 Cadence engineer who can help me ?

I need detail=20 information about dml syntax.

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C6D3.AEA9DA20-- From owner-ibis Wed Apr 18 10:17:56 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3IHHs519578; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id KAA11173; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mentor.com (bob.wv.mentorg.com [147.34.83.63]) by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 2X80CNC8; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:17:17 -0700 Sender: bobr@relay1.mentorg.com Message-ID: <3ADDCC1B.57FF331C@mentor.com> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:17:15 -0700 From: Bob Ross X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis@eda.org, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: IBIS Version 3.2 [Fwd: IEC 62014-1 Ed.1] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------69A67E87F818929FCE85E23A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------69A67E87F818929FCE85E23A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All: Cecilia Fleming of EIA reports that IBIS Version 3.2 has been approved for release as an international standard under IEC. The vote link is below. It should be published by IEC in about a month. Bob Ross Mentor Graphics --------------69A67E87F818929FCE85E23A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from newsgw.mentorg.com ([192.94.38.137]) by svr-orw-exc-03.wv.mentorg.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 2N98C51Z; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:43:59 -0700 Received: from eia.org by newsgw.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id FAA06290; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EIADOM-Message_Server by eia.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:41:43 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.3.1 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:41:28 -0400 From: "Cecilia Fleming" To: Subject: IEC 62014-1 Ed.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob: It looks like it was approved go to: http://www.iec.ch/cgi-bin/procgi.pl/www/iecwww.p?wwwlang=3DE&wwwprog=3Dv= ote2.p&wcom=3D93&wclass=3D&wdoc=3D129&wsup=3D Cece --------------69A67E87F818929FCE85E23A-- From owner-ibis Thu Apr 19 15:02:52 2001 Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (IDENT:0@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3JM2m526839 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlantis.phaseiv.com ([216.180.17.1]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3JM2F503075 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:02:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ATLANTIS/SpoolDir by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 01 17:02:13 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by ATLANTIS (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 01 17:01:53 -0600 Received: from KYOUNG (216.180.17.201) by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 01 17:01:49 -0600 From: "Kris Young" To: Subject: another ebd modeling question Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:01:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 I have one more question for the IBIS gurus out there. I'm using Pspice to model a signal path from an EBD file. I've figured out everything except what to do when the length is zero and there's an L and a C. When I look at the classic lumped lossy line (taking R=0 and G=inf), the series L comes first and then the parallel C. However, when I look at the classic lossless case, the parallel C comes first, and then the series L. Since the impedances of these configurations differ, which one should I use. I can only guess, but it should be clearer than that, right? Would the lossy case be the one to use, even if there's no R? Thanks again, Kris Young From owner-ibis Fri Apr 20 03:41:31 2001 Received: from s6.mailbank.com (proxy.mailbank.com [208.49.167.126]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3KAfR501868 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labonte.com (sj-natpool-220.cisco.com [128.107.248.220]) by s6.mailbank.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3KAenu02674; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:40:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3AE011D8.E9E64ED3@labonte.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:39:20 -0400 From: Mike LaBonte X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Young CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: another ebd modeling question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris, Why not use the PSPICE transmission line model? It is a true distributed transmission line model, so you don't have to be concerned about how to do the lumping. Also, it accepts per-length RLGC values. For example: T3 one_end 0 other_end 0 LEN=1 C=3.1p L=1.05p PSPICE accepts the notion that LEN is not in any particular units, same as EBD. Of course you can add R= and G= for lossy lines, too. That said, if you still need to create a lumped model, try splitting the series elements in two to make it symmetric. For example, use two inductors, each with half the inductance. This way a signal going one way comes out identical to the same signal going the other way. You can leave the middle series elements unsplit. Mike LaBonte Kris Young wrote: > > I have one more question for the IBIS gurus out there. I'm using Pspice to > model a signal path from an EBD file. I've figured out everything except > what to do when the length is zero and there's an L and a C. When I look at > the classic lumped lossy line (taking R=0 and G=inf), the series L comes > first and then the parallel C. However, when I look at the classic lossless > case, the parallel C comes first, and then the series L. > > Since the impedances of these configurations differ, which one should I use. > I can only guess, but it should be clearer than that, right? Would the > lossy case be the one to use, even if there's no R? > > Thanks again, > > Kris Young From owner-ibis Fri Apr 20 07:35:24 2001 Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (IDENT:0@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3KEZL504320 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlantis.phaseiv.com ([216.180.17.1]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3KEYk502102; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:34:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ATLANTIS/SpoolDir by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 20 Apr 01 09:34:36 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by ATLANTIS (Mercury 1.44); 20 Apr 01 09:34:07 -0600 Received: from KYOUNG (216.180.17.201) by atlantis.phaseiv.com (Mercury 1.44); 20 Apr 01 09:33:58 -0600 From: "Kris Young" To: "Mike LaBonte" Cc: Subject: RE: another ebd modeling question Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:34:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3AE011D8.E9E64ED3@labonte.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Mike, I have been using the PSPICE distributed transmission line model, and you're right, it's very convenient to plug in the values from the EBD file. I was very relieved when I figured that out. My question concerns the special case in the EBD file when LEN=0. Supposedly this requires the use of a lumped element. For instance, when LEN=0 and R=0.003, it is specifying a series 3 mOhm resistor. In the file I'm simulating, there are a few cases where LEN=0, and L and C are specified. I'm trying to figure out what configuration of L and C is specified by such a description. Kris Young Phase IV Systems, Inc. Huntsville, AL -----Original Message----- From: Mike LaBonte [mailto:mike@labonte.com] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 5:39 AM To: Kris Young Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: another ebd modeling question Kris, Why not use the PSPICE transmission line model? It is a true distributed transmission line model, so you don't have to be concerned about how to do the lumping. Also, it accepts per-length RLGC values. For example: T3 one_end 0 other_end 0 LEN=1 C=3.1p L=1.05p PSPICE accepts the notion that LEN is not in any particular units, same as EBD. Of course you can add R= and G= for lossy lines, too. That said, if you still need to create a lumped model, try splitting the series elements in two to make it symmetric. For example, use two inductors, each with half the inductance. This way a signal going one way comes out identical to the same signal going the other way. You can leave the middle series elements unsplit. Mike LaBonte Kris Young wrote: > > I have one more question for the IBIS gurus out there. I'm using Pspice to > model a signal path from an EBD file. I've figured out everything except > what to do when the length is zero and there's an L and a C. When I look at > the classic lumped lossy line (taking R=0 and G=inf), the series L comes > first and then the parallel C. However, when I look at the classic lossless > case, the parallel C comes first, and then the series L. > > Since the impedances of these configurations differ, which one should I use. > I can only guess, but it should be clearer than that, right? Would the > lossy case be the one to use, even if there's no R? > > Thanks again, > > Kris Young From owner-ibis Fri Apr 20 11:17:44 2001 Received: from nttoex1.genesis-microchip.on.ca ([209.47.22.207]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3KIHf505268 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by NTTOEX1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2XR6BGVZ>; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:18:09 -0400 Message-ID: <85893468B47AD411818100306E00E184728766@NTTOEX1> From: Allan Shin To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: unsubscribe Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:18:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C9C6.40B48E7A" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C9C6.40B48E7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" i would like to unsubscribe. Thanks ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C9C6.40B48E7A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
i would like to unsubscribe.
 
Thanks
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C9C6.40B48E7A-- From owner-ibis Sun Apr 22 18:24:27 2001 Received: from matrix.seed.net.tw (matrix.seed.net.tw [192.72.81.219]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3N1OOb11476 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [203.73.150.251] (helo=mail_server.elitemt.com.tw) by mail.seed.net.tw with esmtp (SEEDNet Mail Server v2) id 14rV4v-0007AO-00 for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:23:49 +0800 Received: by mail.elitemt.com.tw with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2ZRY0MWJ>; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:32:02 +0800 Message-ID: From: =?Big5?B?rUqrVK7R?= To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: unsubscribe Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:31:59 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0CB95.309F5D50" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CB95.309F5D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe thanks ChunShu Hu (=ADJ=ABT=AE=D1) Elite Semiconductor Memory Technology (ESMT) Tel: 886-3-5781970 ext 121 Fax: 886-3-5781971 Email: cshu@elitemt.com.tw Web: WWW.ESMT.COM.TW Mail: 5F, No. 9, Li-Hsin Road V, Science-Based Industrial Park , 300, Hsinchu, Taiwan, R.O.C.=09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CB95.309F5D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe

unsubscribe
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ChunShu Hu = (=ADJ=ABT=AE=D1)
Elite = Semiconductor Memory Technology (ESMT)
Tel: = 886-3-5781970 ext 121
Fax: = 886-3-5781971
Email: = cshu@elitemt.com.tw
Web: = WWW.ESMT.COM.TW
Mail: 5F, = No. 9, Li-Hsin Road V, Science-Based Industrial Park
           = ; , 300, Hsinchu, Taiwan, R.O.C.     

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CB95.309F5D50-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 06:41:31 2001 Received: from mailgw.chips.ibm.com (mailgw.chips.ibm.com [192.91.197.8]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NDfSb14190 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 06:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.btv.ibm.com (mailrelay.btv.ibm.com [9.61.34.174]) by mailgw.chips.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA35946 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:40:43 -0400 Received: from tornado.btv.ibm.com (tornado.btv.ibm.com [9.66.61.252]) by mailrelay.btv.ibm.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA146380 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:40:42 -0400 Received: from tornado.btv.ibm.com (jhayes@localhost) by tornado.btv.ibm.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA34400 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:40:42 -0400 Message-Id: <200104231340.JAA34400@tornado.btv.ibm.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Temperature variations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:40:42 -0400 From: Hayes To my knowledge an IBIS model is unable to account for temperature variations at a fixed process corner. My customer claims otherwise. Without additional information within a simple CMOS model, I do not see how this possible. Could someone clarify my understanding on this issue? Thanks, Jerry From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 09:43:26 2001 Received: from ptldpop5.ptld.uswest.net ([198.36.160.5]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3NGhOb15060 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 93937 invoked by alias); 23 Apr 2001 16:42:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis-users@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 92906 invoked by uid 0); 23 Apr 2001 16:42:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasthorizons.com) (63.225.95.1) by 198.36.160.5 with SMTP; 23 Apr 2001 16:42:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3AE45B69.7A1B5699@vasthorizons.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:42:17 -0700 From: Scott McMorrow Organization: SiQual X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hayes , ibis Subject: Re: Temperature variations References: <200104231340.JAA34400@tornado.btv.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, You are correct. An IBIS model is extracted at a process corner with a fixed temperature. It is possible to perform multiple extractions at various temperatures for each process corner and create multiple IBIS models to show this behavior ... although this is not normally done. What is normally done is that a behavioral model is extracted for CMOS under the following conditions: fast-n, fast-p, low temperature nominal-n, nominal-p, room temperature slow-n, slow-p, high temperature If there is some reason to have extractions at more than one temperature for each process corner, then separate IBIS models could be extracted. These models would then be valid at those new temperatures. Normally, if device behavior is linear with respect to temperature, then it should only be necessary to perform the extraction at the temperature extremes, as is usually done. regards, scott -- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com Hayes wrote: > To my knowledge an IBIS model is unable to account for temperature > variations at a fixed process corner. My customer claims otherwise. > Without additional information within a simple CMOS model, I do not see > how this possible. Could someone clarify my understanding on this issue? > > Thanks, > Jerry > > From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 09:52:53 2001 Received: from techst02.technion.ac.il (techst02.technion.ac.il [132.68.7.4]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NGqpb15096 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by techst02.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 19755) id 3143A14DF0; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:52:11 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by techst02.technion.ac.il (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1418811ED8; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:52:10 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:52:10 +0300 (IDT) From: Offer Kaye To: Hayes Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Temperature variations In-Reply-To: <200104231340.JAA34400@tornado.btv.ibm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To the best of my knowledge, the [Temperature Range] keyword together with the Typ, Min, Max columns for the various IBIS parameters account together for this issue. Offer Kaye sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Hayes wrote: > > To my knowledge an IBIS model is unable to account for temperature > variations at a fixed process corner. My customer claims otherwise. > Without additional information within a simple CMOS model, I do not see > how this possible. Could someone clarify my understanding on this issue? > > Thanks, > Jerry > > > > > From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 11:36:29 2001 Received: from zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (zcamail05.zca.compaq.com [161.114.32.105]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NIaRb15526 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id 78BCC26E; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net (exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net [16.103.129.53]) by zcamail05.zca.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1645439F; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exctay-gh03.tay.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:35:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ingraham, Andrew" To: "'Hayes'" Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: Temperature variations Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:35:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain > To my knowledge an IBIS model is unable to account for temperature > variations at a fixed process corner. My customer claims otherwise. > Without additional information within a simple CMOS model, I do not see > how this possible. Could someone clarify my understanding on this issue? IBIS models do (or are supposed to) account for the full temperature range over which they are specified. But they do not allow for simulations to vary as a function of temperature variations. Performance of CMOS and Bipolar process ICs tend to vary in opposite directions versus temperature. IBIS models are blind to the process. Regards, Andy From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 12:24:53 2001 Received: from ext-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (ext-ch1gw-2.online-age.net [216.34.191.36]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NJOpb15761 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from int-ch1gw-1.online-age.net (int-ch1gw-1 [3.159.232.65]) by ext-ch1gw-2.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id PAA13051 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uswaumsxbhmedge.med.ge.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by int-ch1gw-1.online-age.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1/990426-RLH) with ESMTP id PAA20614 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by amermsx.med.ge.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:25:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: IBIS Model question Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:25:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi IBIS Gurus, In the IBIS model of any part does the term "dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet) of that particular part? Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Mathew Signal Integrity Expert, Global Electrical Technology Center, GE Medical Systems, Phone:(262)544-3776 Fax:(262)548-2315 From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 13:08:00 2001 Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.43.88]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NK7sb15920 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arafiq-u30.cisco.com (arafiq-u30.cisco.com [10.34.20.186]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12736; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arafiq-u30.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id NAA08919; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arafiq@cisco.com Message-ID: <3AE48B70.5C8D123A@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:07:12 -0700 From: Abdulrahman Rafiq Reply-To: arafiq@cisco.com Organization: cisco systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: IBIS Model question References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7C7A69538E822E183675CF43" --------------7C7A69538E822E183675CF43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dv/dt_r : seems like its a propogation velocity/ actually acceleration--it might be the rise time . However I am not sure. "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" wrote: > Hi IBIS Gurus, > In the IBIS model of any part does the term > "dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet) > of that particular part? > Thanks, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Mathew > Signal Integrity Expert, > Global Electrical Technology Center, > GE Medical Systems, > Phone:(262)544-3776 > Fax:(262)548-2315 > -- ********************************************************************* Abdulrahman A. Rafiq (AKA Abbey) Hardware/Layout Engineer CISCO SYSTEMS INC. Signal Integrity and Packaging Group 230 West Tasman Drive Mail Stop: SJ/G/2/3 San Jose, Ca 95134 (Bldg: G-2, Office: 227) Voice: (408) 527-5540 Fax : (408) 526-8573 Pager: (408) 301-8880 email: arafiq@cisco.com epage: arafiq@epage.cisco.com Webpage: http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq Group Page: http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com ********************************************************************* --------------7C7A69538E822E183675CF43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dv/dt_r : seems like its a propogation velocity/ actually acceleration--it might be the rise time . However I am not sure.
 

"Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" wrote:

Hi IBIS Gurus,
                     In the IBIS model of any part does the term
"dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet)
of that particular part?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth Mathew
Signal Integrity Expert,
Global Electrical Technology Center,
GE Medical Systems,
Phone:(262)544-3776
Fax:(262)548-2315
<mailto:Elizabeth.Mathew@med.ge.com>

-- 
*********************************************************************
Abdulrahman A. Rafiq (AKA Abbey)
Hardware/Layout Engineer

CISCO SYSTEMS INC.
Signal Integrity and Packaging Group
230 West Tasman Drive 
Mail Stop: SJ/G/2/3
San Jose, Ca 95134
(Bldg: G-2, Office: 227)

Voice: (408) 527-5540
Fax  : (408) 526-8573
Pager: (408) 301-8880
email: arafiq@cisco.com
epage: arafiq@epage.cisco.com
Webpage: http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq
Group Page: http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com
*********************************************************************
  --------------7C7A69538E822E183675CF43-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 13:15:59 2001 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NKFvb15957 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from svr-orw-exc-04.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id NAA17359; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by svr-orw-exc-04.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:15:17 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Dagostino, Tom" To: "'arafiq@cisco.com'" , "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: IBIS Model question Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:15:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0CC32.198CC1A0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CC32.198CC1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From the IBIS 3.2 spec BM__Toc460058252| Keyword: [Ramp] | Required: Yes, except for inputs, terminators, Series and Series_switch | model types. | Description: Defines the rise and fall times of a buffer. The ramp rate | does not include packaging but does include the effects of the | C_comp parameter. | Sub-Params: dV/dt_r, dV/dt_f, R_load | Usage Rules: The rise and fall time is defined as the time it takes the | output to go from 20% to 80% of its final value. The ramp | rate is defined as: | | dV 20% to 80% voltage swing | -- = ---------------------------------------- | dt Time it takes to swing the above voltage | | The ramp rate must be specified as an explicit fraction and | must not be reduced. The [Ramp] values can use "NA" for the | min and max values only. The R_load subparameter is optional | if the default 50 ohm load is used. The R_load subparameter | is required if a non-standard load is used. |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [Ramp] | variable typ min max dV/dt_r 2.20/1.06n 1.92/1.28n 2.49/650p dV/dt_f 2.46/1.21n 2.21/1.54n 2.70/770p R_load = 300ohms Tom Dagostino IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager SDD Mentor Graphics Corp. 503-685-1613 tom_dagostino@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Abdulrahman Rafiq [mailto:arafiq@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:07 PM To: Mathew, Elizabeth (MED) Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: IBIS Model question dv/dt_r : seems like its a propogation velocity/ actually acceleration--it might be the rise time . However I am not sure. "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" wrote: Hi IBIS Gurus, In the IBIS model of any part does the term "dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet) of that particular part? Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Mathew Signal Integrity Expert, Global Electrical Technology Center, GE Medical Systems, Phone:(262)544-3776 Fax:(262)548-2315 < mailto:Elizabeth.Mathew@med.ge.com > -- ********************************************************************* Abdulrahman A. Rafiq (AKA Abbey) Hardware/Layout Engineer CISCO SYSTEMS INC. Signal Integrity and Packaging Group 230 West Tasman Drive Mail Stop: SJ/G/2/3 San Jose, Ca 95134 (Bldg: G-2, Office: 227) Voice: (408) 527-5540 Fax : (408) 526-8573 Pager: (408) 301-8880 email: arafiq@cisco.com epage: arafiq@epage.cisco.com Webpage: http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq Group Page: http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com ********************************************************************* ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CC32.198CC1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
From the IBIS 3.2 spec
 

| Keyword: [Ramp]

| Required: Yes, except for inputs, terminators, Series and Series_switch

| model types.

| Description: Defines the rise and fall times of a buffer. The ramp rate

| does not include packaging but does include the effects of the

| C_comp parameter.

| Sub-Params: dV/dt_r, dV/dt_f, R_load

| Usage Rules: The rise and fall time is defined as the time it takes the

| output to go from 20% to 80% of its final value. The ramp

| rate is defined as:

|

| dV 20% to 80% voltage swing

| -- = ----------------------------------------

| dt Time it takes to swing the above voltage

|

| The ramp rate must be specified as an explicit fraction and

| must not be reduced. The [Ramp] values can use "NA" for the

| min and max values only. The R_load subparameter is optional

| if the default 50 ohm load is used. The R_load subparameter

| is required if a non-standard load is used.

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ramp]

| variable typ min max

dV/dt_r 2.20/1.06n 1.92/1.28n 2.49/650p

dV/dt_f 2.46/1.21n 2.21/1.54n 2.70/770p

R_load = 300ohms

 

Tom Dagostino
IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager
SDD
Mentor Graphics Corp.
503-685-1613
tom_dagostino@mentor.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Abdulrahman Rafiq [mailto:arafiq@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 1:07 PM
To: Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)
Cc: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: Re: IBIS Model question

dv/dt_r : seems like its a propogation velocity/ actually acceleration--it might be the rise time . However I am not sure.
 

"Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" wrote:

Hi IBIS Gurus,
                     In the IBIS model of any part does the term
"dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet)
of that particular part?
Thanks,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth Mathew
Signal Integrity Expert,
Global Electrical Technology Center,
GE Medical Systems,
Phone:(262)544-3776
Fax:(262)548-2315
<mailto:Elizabeth.Mathew@med.ge.com>

-- 
*********************************************************************
Abdulrahman A. Rafiq (AKA Abbey)
Hardware/Layout Engineer

CISCO SYSTEMS INC.
Signal Integrity and Packaging Group
230 West Tasman Drive 
Mail Stop: SJ/G/2/3
San Jose, Ca 95134
(Bldg: G-2, Office: 227)

Voice: (408) 527-5540
Fax  : (408) 526-8573
Pager: (408) 301-8880
email: arafiq@cisco.com
epage: arafiq@epage.cisco.com
Webpage: http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq
Group Page: http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com
*********************************************************************
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0CC32.198CC1A0-- From owner-ibis Mon Apr 23 14:16:12 2001 Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3NLGAb16207 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.45.34]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA13B6; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:21:07 -0700 Sender: "Kim Helliwell" Message-ID: <3AE49B76.76DF37C8@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:15:34 -0700 From: Kim Helliwell Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: IBIS Model question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Mathew, Elizabeth (MED)" wrote: > > Hi IBIS Gurus, > In the IBIS model of any part does the term > "dv/dt_r" correspond to the rise time (tr - as denoted in the datasheet) > of that particular part? > Thanks, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Mathew > Signal Integrity Expert, > Global Electrical Technology Center, > GE Medical Systems, > Phone:(262)544-3776 > Fax:(262)548-2315 > dV/dt_r is defined as the time to go from 20% to 80% of the swing from low to high. This may not correspond exactly to the risetime as defined in a datasheet; you have to check how it's measured for the datasheet to be sure. -- Kim Helliwell Senior CAE Engineer Acuson Corporation Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 From owner-ibis Tue Apr 24 12:41:38 2001 Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3OJfa101064 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA01735 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:41:03 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from msgphx1.sps.mot.com (msgphx1.sps.mot.com [216.3.20.10]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA23516 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:40:59 -0700 (MST)] Received: from email.sps.mot.com ([163.11.49.156]) by msgphx1.sps.mot.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA15D for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:40:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3AE5D606.81870BB2@email.sps.mot.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:37:42 -0500 From: r6aabt@email.sps.mot.com (Jay Azurin) Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOT45 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Package Parasitics References: <200101311917.LAA22736@phys-ha1mpka.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Motorola-Sent-Wireless: 1 Hello, I am new to the IBIS game so pardon my simplistic question. I would like to know the meaning of the values in an IBIS model: [Package] |variable typ min max R_pkg 250m 200m 300m L_pkg 8nH 5nH 12nH C_pkg 0.7pF 0.56pF 1.2pF | I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > [Package] > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be realistic with no package parasitics? Thanks for your help. Best regards, Jay Azurin Motorola NetComm Applications From owner-ibis Tue Apr 24 14:46:57 2001 Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3OLkt900462 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.45.34]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA2B00; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:51:53 -0700 Sender: "Kim Helliwell" Message-ID: <3AE5F42B.3A69EF9D@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:46:19 -0700 From: Kim Helliwell Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Azurin CC: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Package Parasitics References: <200101311917.LAA22736@phys-ha1mpka.eng.sun.com> <3AE5D606.81870BB2@email.sps.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jay Azurin wrote: > > Hello, > > I am new to the IBIS game so pardon my simplistic question. I would like > to know the meaning of the values in an IBIS model: > > [Package] > > |variable typ min max > > R_pkg 250m 200m 300m > > L_pkg 8nH 5nH 12nH > > C_pkg 0.7pF 0.56pF 1.2pF > | > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > [Package] > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be > realistic with no package parasitics? > > Thanks for your help. > > Best regards, > Jay Azurin > Motorola NetComm Applications The package parasitics might be included in the pullup, pulldown, and clamp curves in some way. While this is permissible (I think), it makes it much harder to re-use the pullup/pulldown/clamp curves for any other package. The whole point of separating these effects is to allow re-use of the curves with different package models. -- Kim Helliwell Senior CAE Engineer Acuson Corporation Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 From owner-ibis Tue Apr 24 15:04:34 2001 Received: from cisco.com (ups.cisco.com [171.69.18.21]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3OM4W900487 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shuq-u10.cisco.com (shuq-u10.cisco.com [10.34.20.148]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09109; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104242203.PAA09109@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:03:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Reply-To: Syed Huq Subject: Re: Package Parasitics To: r6aabt@email.sps.mot.com Cc: ibis-users@eda.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: WO2+iDCKohnLjm9DDdz5Aw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc One reason could be is that a ASIC vendor is simply creating "buffer only" models without any package parasitics. Once the ASIC is defined(with package) then you create the full IBIS model with all the individual buffers along with the package parameters.. For a commercially available component, it does not make sense to have a model without the package parasitics. Syed Cisco Systems, Inc > > > | > > > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > > > > [Package] > > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be > > realistic with no package parasitics? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > Best regards, > > Jay Azurin > > Motorola NetComm Applications > From owner-ibis Tue Apr 24 16:16:00 2001 Received: from father.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (father.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.224.13]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3ONFw900760 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11438 invoked by uid 104); 24 Apr 2001 23:15:21 -0000 Received: from David_Makihara@pmc-sierra.com by father with qmail-scanner-0.93 (uvscan: v4.0.70/v4074. . Clean. Processed in 0.42185 secs); 24/04/2001 16:15:21 Received: from unknown (HELO plymouth.pmc-sierra.bc.ca) (134.87.114.227) by father.pmc-sierra.bc.ca with SMTP; 24 Apr 2001 23:15:20 -0000 Received: from bby1exi01.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (bby1exi01.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.231.251]) by plymouth.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (dave/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3ONFL206487; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bby1exi01.pmc-sierra.bc.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2NK1JB2S>; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <9DC5E2ABE65BD54CA9088DA3194461D6022FEA80@BBY1EXM01> From: David Makihara To: "'Kim Helliwell'" , Jay Azurin Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: Package Parasitics Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:17:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, It's also possible to have pin specific parasitics which override the Package specific parasitics. | ----- Cut from the IBIS 2.1 specification ----- [Pin] signal_name model_name R_pin L_pin C_pin | 1 RAS0# Buffer1 200.0m 5.0nH 2.0pF 2 RAS1# Buffer2 209.0m NA 2.5pF | ------------------------------------------------ Regards Dave David Makihara Manager, System Interface Modelling PMC-Sierra Inc. 105-8555 Baxter Place Burnaby, BC V5A 4V7 tel:604-415-6000 ext 2422 fax:604-415-6206 e-mail:makihara@pmc-sierra.bc.ca website: http://www.pmc-sierra.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Kim Helliwell [mailto:khelliwe@acuson.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:46 PM > To: Jay Azurin > Cc: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: Package Parasitics > > > Jay Azurin wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am new to the IBIS game so pardon my simplistic question. > I would like > > to know the meaning of the values in an IBIS model: > > > > [Package] > > > > |variable typ min max > > > > R_pkg 250m 200m 300m > > > > L_pkg 8nH 5nH 12nH > > > > C_pkg 0.7pF 0.56pF 1.2pF > > | > > > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > > > > [Package] > > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the > model would be > > realistic with no package parasitics? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > Best regards, > > Jay Azurin > > Motorola NetComm Applications > > The package parasitics might be included in the pullup, > pulldown, and clamp > curves in some way. While this is permissible (I think), it > makes it much > harder to re-use the pullup/pulldown/clamp curves for any > other package. The > whole point of separating these effects is to allow re-use of > the curves with > different package models. > -- > Kim Helliwell > Senior CAE Engineer > Acuson Corporation > Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 > From owner-ibis Wed Apr 25 06:11:46 2001 Received: from newsmtp2.atmel.com ([192.199.8.23]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3PDBh903915 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.sjo.atmel.com (newhermes [10.64.0.105]) by newsmtp2.atmel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA08163; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chp.atmel.com (pelican [10.112.0.23]) by hermes.sjo.atmel.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA25090; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.chp.atmel.com by chp.atmel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15912; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:10:31 -0400 Received: from atmel.com by osprey.chp.atmel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08424; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:10:28 -0400 Sender: mbossard@atmel.com Message-ID: <3AE6CCC4.9104E0FF@atmel.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:10:28 -0400 From: Mark Bossard Organization: Atmel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Syed Huq CC: r6aabt@email.sps.mot.com, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Package Parasitics References: <200104242203.PAA09109@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Syed... The ASIC house I work in does supply ibis models to our customers that are simply an ibis model for one I/O buffer. They are many times left without package RLC so they can be filled in depending on the package that is used. -Mark Bossard Atmel Chesapeake Design Center Syed Huq wrote: > > One reason could be is that a ASIC vendor is simply creating "buffer only" > models without any package parasitics. Once the ASIC is defined(with package) > then you create the full IBIS model with all the individual buffers along > with the package parameters.. > > For a commercially available component, it does not make sense to have > a model without the package parasitics. > > Syed > Cisco Systems, Inc > > > > > > | > > > > > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Package] > > > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be > > > realistic with no package parasitics? > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jay Azurin > > > Motorola NetComm Applications > > -- ======================================================================== | Mark Bossard | | | Direct Phone: (410) 872-9267 | Atmel Corporation | | Main Phone: (410) 312-4400 | Chesapeake Design Center | | Fax: (410) 312-4424 | 6740 Alexander Bell Dr, Suite 100 | | Email: mbossard@atmel.com | Columbia, MD 21046 | ======================================================================== From owner-ibis Wed Apr 25 08:02:44 2001 Received: from rumor.cps.intel.com (rumor.cps.intel.com [192.102.198.242]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3PF2g904460 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs05-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.205]) by rumor.cps.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.36 2001/04/18 16:16:02 root Exp $) with SMTP id PAA11473 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:02:01 GMT Received: from fmsmsx27.FM.INTEL.COM ([132.233.48.27]) by 132.233.48.205 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:02:04 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx27.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:02:02 -0700 Message-ID: <10C8636AE359D4119118009027AE9987051553F7@FMSMSX34> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: Package Parasitics Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:02:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kim, You cannot include the package parasitics in the pullup, pulldown, and clamp IV curves. The IV curves are DC characteristics, and there is no way you can describe AC effects with them, such as inductance, and capacitance. The best you can do with these is the resistive losses in the package. The AC part may be described in the waveforms (Vt curves), but that is not the best or most correct way to go about it. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ============================================================= -----Original Message----- From: Kim Helliwell [mailto:khelliwe@acuson.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:46 PM To: Jay Azurin Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Package Parasitics Jay Azurin wrote: > > Hello, > > I am new to the IBIS game so pardon my simplistic question. I would like > to know the meaning of the values in an IBIS model: > > [Package] > > |variable typ min max > > R_pkg 250m 200m 300m > > L_pkg 8nH 5nH 12nH > > C_pkg 0.7pF 0.56pF 1.2pF > | > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > [Package] > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be > realistic with no package parasitics? > > Thanks for your help. > > Best regards, > Jay Azurin > Motorola NetComm Applications The package parasitics might be included in the pullup, pulldown, and clamp curves in some way. While this is permissible (I think), it makes it much harder to re-use the pullup/pulldown/clamp curves for any other package. The whole point of separating these effects is to allow re-use of the curves with different package models. -- Kim Helliwell Senior CAE Engineer Acuson Corporation Phone: 650 694 5030 FAX: 650 943 7260 From owner-ibis Wed Apr 25 09:09:41 2001 Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (fmfdns02.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3PG9d904782 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs02-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.202]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.36 2001/04/18 16:16:02 root Exp $) with SMTP id QAA28647; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:09:05 GMT Received: from fmsmsx29.FM.INTEL.COM ([132.233.48.29]) by 132.233.48.202 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:09:03 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx29.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:09:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Nelson, Kerry" To: r6aabt@email.sps.mot.com, ibis-users@eda.org Cc: Syed Huq , "'Mark Bossard'" Subject: RE: Package Parasitics Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:08:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In addition to other reasons... We have often found this section of the IBIS model to be inadequate in describing our CPU and chipset packages. For example, there is no way to include a transmission line element of any sort. We usually use a Package Model or an Electrical Board Description (EBD) to more accurately describe the package. (Both are part of the IBIS specification.) In those cases we will set R_pkg, L_pkg, and C_pkg to zero. I hope that helps. Kerry Intel Corp. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bossard [mailto:mbossard@atmel.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 6:10 AM To: Syed Huq Cc: r6aabt@email.sps.mot.com; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: Package Parasitics I agree with Syed... The ASIC house I work in does supply ibis models to our customers that are simply an ibis model for one I/O buffer. They are many times left without package RLC so they can be filled in depending on the package that is used. -Mark Bossard Atmel Chesapeake Design Center Syed Huq wrote: > > One reason could be is that a ASIC vendor is simply creating "buffer only" > models without any package parasitics. Once the ASIC is defined(with package) > then you create the full IBIS model with all the individual buffers along > with the package parameters.. > > For a commercially available component, it does not make sense to have > a model without the package parasitics. > > Syed > Cisco Systems, Inc > > > > > > | > > > > > > I have found other models that have these values set to zero: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Package] > > > > > > R_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > L_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > C_pkg 0 0 0 > > > > > > Can you explain why these values are used, i.e. why the model would be > > > realistic with no package parasitics? > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jay Azurin > > > Motorola NetComm Applications > > -- ======================================================================== | Mark Bossard | | | Direct Phone: (410) 872-9267 | Atmel Corporation | | Main Phone: (410) 312-4400 | Chesapeake Design Center | | Fax: (410) 312-4424 | 6740 Alexander Bell Dr, Suite 100 | | Email: mbossard@atmel.com | Columbia, MD 21046 | ======================================================================== From owner-ibis Thu Apr 26 00:54:55 2001 Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr ([202.30.128.31]) by server.eda.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f3Q7sbj03624 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ami4000.hei.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3Q7rhD16644 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:53:43 +0900 (KST) Received: from LocalHost ([166.125.71.210]) by ami4000.hei.co.kr (8.11.0/8.9.3) with SMTP id f3Q7rdD16598; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:53:39 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <00b801c0ce26$40014cc0$d2477da6@LocalHost> Reply-To: "Jongho Kang" From: "Jongho Kang" To: , "Kris Young" References: Subject: Re: another ebd modeling question Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:55:21 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by server.eda.org id f3Q7tKj03625 Kris, Did you figure out what configuration of L and C is used when Len=0 and L and C is specified ? I'm in the same situation as you was. I'm trying to describe C-L-C lumped circuit in the EBD. If you figured out , please let me know. Thanks, Jongho Kang ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Young To: Mike LaBonte Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 11:34 PM Subject: RE: another ebd modeling question Mike, I have been using the PSPICE distributed transmission line model, and you're right, it's very convenient to plug in the values from the EBD file. I was very relieved when I figured that out. My question concerns the special case in the EBD file when LEN=0. Supposedly this requires the use of a lumped element. For instance, when LEN=0 and R=0.003, it is specifying a series 3 mOhm resistor. In the file I'm simulating, there are a few cases where LEN=0, and L and C are specified. I'm trying to figure out what configuration of L and C is specified by such a description. Kris Young Phase IV Systems, Inc. Huntsville, AL -----Original Message----- From: Mike LaBonte [mailto:mike@labonte.com] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 5:39 AM To: Kris Young Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: another ebd modeling question Kris, Why not use the PSPICE transmission line model? It is a true distributed transmission line model, so you don't have to be concerned about how to do the lumping. Also, it accepts per-length RLGC values. For example: T3 one_end 0 other_end 0 LEN=1 C=3.1p L=1.05p PSPICE accepts the notion that LEN is not in any particular units, same as EBD. Of course you can add R= and G= for lossy lines, too. That said, if you still need to create a lumped model, try splitting the series elements in two to make it symmetric. For example, use two inductors, each with half the inductance. This way a signal going one way comes out identical to the same signal going the other way. You can leave the middle series elements unsplit. Mike LaBonte Kris Young wrote: > > I have one more question for the IBIS gurus out there. I'm using Pspice to > model a signal path from an EBD file. I've figured out everything except > what to do when the length is zero and there's an L and a C. When I look at > the classic lumped lossy line (taking R=0 and G=inf), the series L comes > first and then the parallel C. However, when I look at the classic lossless > case, the parallel C comes first, and then the series L. > > Since the impedances of these configurations differ, which one should I use. > I can only guess, but it should be clearer than that, right? Would the > lossy case be the one to use, even if there's no R? > > Thanks again, > > Kris Young